Workplace Well-being Under Pressure | Burnout, Trust & What Good Employers Do Differently

What does workplace wellbeing really look like when pressure rises?

In this episode of the mentl space, Scott Armstrong speaks with Paul Firth, Founder and Managing Director of Lyra Wellbeing MENA, about what 2026 has revealed so far about workplace culture, leadership, trust and mental health.

Recorded as part of the mentl awards 'Moving the Needle' series, the conversation explores how geopolitical tension, economic uncertainty, burnout, disengagement and always-on working are showing up inside organisations across the region.

Paul explains how well-being can no longer be treated as a side initiative, awareness campaign or optional benefit. Like health and safety, it has to become part of business strategy.

Together, Scott and Paul discuss:

• Why you do not build resilience in a crisis, you build it before the crisis
• How geopolitical uncertainty has affected employees, families and employers
• Why internal communication and trust matter before pressure hits
• What stronger organisations do differently during difficult periods
• Why well-being should not be seen simply as a cost to business
• The pressure now sitting on middle managers, and why they need support, training and boundaries
• How managers can spot subtle changes in people before problems escalate
• Why psychological safety is central to innovation, performance and trust
• How workplace well-being links to productivity, disengagement, safety and business performance
• What Paul saw as a mentl awards judge, and what stronger entries revealed
• Why simple, practical well-being actions can be more powerful than big-budget initiatives
• How organisations can use evidence, employee voice and storytelling to strengthen their wellbeing strategy
• Why Lyra Wellbeing MENA is backing the mentl awards for the second year running
• What employers should learn from the gap between tick-box wellbeing and a culture where support is lived

This is a conversation about moving beyond slogans and into practical workplace change.

Because when pressure rises, culture is tested. And when times are hard, poor leadership gets exposed quickly.

Chapter List:

00:00 Welcome to the mentl space

Scott opens the live conversation and introduces Paul Firth, Lyra Wellbeing MENA, the mentl awards and the question of what the first half of 2026 has taught workplaces.

01:29 Geopolitical tension, burnout and employee anxiety

Paul explains how conflict and uncertainty in the region have compounded existing workplace pressures, including stress, disengagement and burnout.

03:59 What organisations got right and wrong under pressure

Scott and Paul discuss how employers responded during the crisis, including remote working, business continuity, employee support and the risk of cutting well-being when it is needed most.

06:22 Why internal communication cannot wait for a crisis

Scott reflects on how organisations shifted from external to internal communication, and why stronger businesses had already built trust before the pressure hit.

08:18 You do not build resilience in a crisis

The conversation turns to resilience, business continuity, employee wellbeing and why culture has to be built before difficult moments arrive.

12:06 When pressure exposes poor leadership

Scott discusses how personal safety and workplace insecurity can exist at the same time, and why difficult periods reveal leadership weaknesses quickly.

14:26 Psychological safety, trust and employee voice

Paul explains why employees need to feel safe to raise concerns, challenge, suggest ideas and contribute to decisions without fear of humiliation.

17:26 Wellbeing as business strategy, not a cost

Paul argues that wellbeing should be treated like health and safety: part of the operating strategy, not a discretionary cost or benefit.

21:02 The middle management bottleneck

The discussion explores why managers carry pressure from above and below, why they are not proxy psychologists, and what support and training they need.

35:43 What the mentl awards entries reveal

Paul reflects on what stood out from judging the awards, including employee voice, culture, simple practical initiatives, evidence, passion and genuine belief in the work.

49:23 From tick-box wellbeing to a lived culture

Scott and Paul discuss the difference between low and high EAP engagement, why culture drives uptake, and what it means when well-being becomes part of every business decision.

53:21 AI, uncertainty and psychosocial risk

The conversation turns to AI-driven workforce anxiety, productivity pressure and the risk that technology simply creates more space for more work.

55:43 Why organisations should enter the mentl awards

Paul explains why organisations should share their well-being stories, why initiatives do not have to be huge, and why evidence and learning matter.

Transcript

SPEAKER_00 0:00

You don't build resilience in a crisis, you build the resilience before the crisis.

SPEAKER_01 0:04

There's high levels of disengagement, high levels of stress. We hear more and more about burnout.

SPEAKER_00 0:11

When time's good, poor leadership is hidden. And it's actually times like this year where the poor leadership gets exposed and exposed pretty quickly.

SPEAKER_01 0:21

Nobody asks for data now on whether smoking is good for you or not. Yeah. It's accept. I hope one day we'll get to the point where we say, yeah, we don't need to keep looking at the data. Yeah, we accept it has a financial impact on our business, where positive impact if we can establish good well-being within the organization.

SPEAKER_00 0:45

Welcome back to the mental space and welcome to you who are joining us today on LinkedIn Live or indeed YouTube Live. Great to have your company with us today. Now, today's a special edition. We're going to be focusing on a few things like the mental awards, but also we want to focus on what 2026 has taught us because I think for most of us it's felt like this has been two years, but actually, tomorrow, the day after tomorrow, we're into the second half of the year. And let's hope that the second half is going to be a little bit smoother ride than the first half. Well, to join me today to talk about the latest in workplace well-being, but also what these past six months have perhaps taught us. I'm delighted to be joined by Mr. Paul Fulforth.

SPEAKER_01 1:28

Thank you, Scott.

SPEAKER_00 1:29

Managing director and founder of Lyra Wellbeing Mina. Paul has also been a judge for the mental awards, and we'll talk about his perspectives on that a bit later for the last two years. And I'm delighted to say as well for the second year running that Lyra Wellbeing Mina is a bronze sponsor of the awards. So I want to say thank you very much to support. So we're just going to get into what this year has been teaching us. And as I say, you're kind of, you know, the organization, you run Lyra Wellbeing, EAP, Employee Assistance Programme. You're kind of where the rubber meets the road. And you'll be seeing how employees have been faring and facing up in the past six months. What are you seeing out there?

SPEAKER_01 2:11

It's been obviously uh a different experience for us all with uh you know the conflict that we had in the region. So obviously we we've seen significant impact that that's that's brought about. I think uh unfortunately it's sort of just compounded on the the the sort of workplace environments we're seeing at the moment and have done for a number of years now, where there's you know, there's high levels of disengagement, high levels of stress. We hear more and more about burnout. And I think then obviously, you know, at the early part of this year going into the conflict situation, you know, that just brought about additional challenges, experiences that most of us had not experienced before, in terms of um, you know, managing through a challenging time like that. And um, you know, from a workplace perspective, that was just adding additional challenges from the workplace perspective, um, you know, in terms of the anxiety, the uncertainty as an employee, in terms of, you know, um, you know, for a lot of um families, some of the families had you know gone home to to get out of the region. So that just was the added pressure, you know, from a from an employee's perspective, in terms of worrying that family are back somewhere else, family worrying about leaving the employee here, yeah. Um you know, the uncertainty around uh what you know what if what is actually going to happen. And so all this was just sort of you know feeding uh the frustration, the stresses, the anxiety from a from an employee's perspective.

SPEAKER_00 3:45

I mean, it feels like these conversations are sharper this year because of what's happened. And Nari, hi, and also Faisal, thanks for joining us. Faisal, I hope my voice is a bit better. I knew I was going to forget one thing doing a live broadcast, and the microphone is a pretty key piece, but thank you for the reminder. So hopefully that's coming in. Uh, if anyone is tuning in, so Nari for uh please you can post questions, you can post your thoughts, you can take the Mickey out of me, or you can tell Paul how handsome he's looking. But yeah, this is for you as well. So this is a two-way conversation. So share your thoughts and we'll get Paul's thoughts on that as well. But as I say, it's it's been a sharper conversation this year. How is it, you know, how is that situation? Have you seen organizations getting some things right? And have you seen some organizations getting things very, very wrong? You know, because sometimes in an economic plus geopolitical situation, the temptation is to kind of like cut all costs, but that can actually be counter counterproductive at times.

SPEAKER_01 4:45

Yeah, I I think the short answer to that is uh some positives and negatives in terms of successes or I don't like to use the term failure, but you know, things that did maybe didn't work. It's it was a new experience for everybody. Yeah, yeah. Uh so you know when we have situations like that, um it's it is a an element of well, we're doing what we believe is the best thing to do. Yeah. Um the outcome of that in some cases will be will be very positive. But there's always the potential that you know what we put in, what you put in place for the right reasons didn't necessarily work as effectively as you might have thought. I mean, obviously, you know, during that time working remotely became another requirement again. Yeah. We've had that experience, you know, three, what was it now, three, four years ago with COVID. And this was a completely new scenario, but it was you know bringing along similar challenges in terms of how do you maintain business normality? Business has to get done. We can't just stop you know business. Um, but recognizing the challenges that our employees have in terms of that business continuity, which comes along with the sort of psychological challenges, uncertainty. Yeah. So that that was a challenge for for every even for us as an organization in in our field, uh, you know, I had to consider various things in terms of uh supporting the employees while still maintaining we were you know supporting our clients. Yeah. And you know, I have to say it was it was quite um quite a nice feeling that some of our clients were reaching out to us and saying, we know you're supporting us. How are things for you? I hope everything's going for you and your team. Which was which was nice. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 6:32

I was at uh it was the Middle East uh PR association leadership match list just last week. And it was a really fascinating thing because a few different organizations, big organizations, were there talking about how they had responded. And it was it was funny that they they kind of like dusted off the COVID sort of crisis playbook. But a lot of them were talking about how they shifted to external communication, to internal communication, because obviously maybe maybe customers weren't buying, but it was more about yeah, business continuity, as you say, but also you know, uh talking and trying to build that trust inside the organization to the employees and support the employees. My which I thought was great, but here's the frustration shouldn't that be something they were already doing? And it's funny that you know internal comms comes when the crisis happens. And I it feels like the best businesses, the stronger businesses, were doing that already. They were already building the culture prior to the crisis.

SPEAKER_01 7:32

Totally agree. Uh, you know, every organization has to respond to a crisis.

SPEAKER_00 7:37

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 7:38

And yes, there are organizations that, as you say, will will will will make moves to to to make the establish the right uh workplace culture, the right environment. Those organizations would have found it a little bit easier in terms of managing through situations like this. Yeah. You know, we had a number of organizations that were reaching out to us for the first time during the conflict, believing that they had to do something. Yeah. And then when there was this discussion around the ceasefire, the conversations sort of slowed down and it was okay. So it this was very much a response to we have to do something right now, is there is there isn't the same need now, so maybe we don't have to do it. Yeah. Um, it's disappointing to see that. Yeah. But you know, we we can't force anybody to, you know, to sort of uh establish well-being in the right way. We hope they will, and we'll support them if they do.

SPEAKER_00 8:34

I mean, times like this, I mean, there's one word that gets bandied around a lot, you know, and that's obviously resilience. Yeah. Uh and I was on a uh another podcast with a great uh great lady from uh Bayert and Dubizel, uh Susan, and she was also saying, like, you know, you don't build resilience in a crisis, you build the resilience before the crisis. Absolutely. And it's fascinating. Uh Kitaki, if uh please, I hope I'm pronouncing your name right. I mean asking a couple of questions, and thanks for getting involved. Everyone who is tuning in, keep your questions coming. How are organizations managing business continuity, restructuring and the employee well-being all at once? And also, do organisations actually have the budgets for employee well-being, given the economic impact of the conflict in the region? And I've got some thoughts on the economic argument, as you know. But organizations managing business continuity, restructuring employee well-being. I mean, one of the organizations, and I won't say which one it was, at this Mepra Majis, was actually saying that while a lot of the organizations are lent into flexibility and remote working, they uh because they had a lot of frontline staff that were out with the public. So they turned around to all their admin, to their HR, to their C-suite, to all of those people that weren't from you know, uh frontline and said, You can't work remotely. If these guys have to be there, you have to come in as well, uh, which is a really interesting thing because you have to have built a particular kind of culture to actually make a decision like that. Because it, you know, and in some ways it feels kind of fair, but and they were basically saying, if you're struggling, we'll deal with this on a case-by-case basis. But the example we should set is, but that's an example of uh, I suppose a strong culture.

SPEAKER_01 10:13

Absolutely, and it it's you have to have the right environment to be able to do that. Yes, yeah. So you have to build that trust or that trust and engage when we talk about engagement, you know, that the the employees trust and believing whatever uh strategy you're going to put in place to deal with a certain situation like that, that they're trusting that. A level of autonomy for them as well, in terms of clearly every business is different. Uh so if you've got frontline workers, you as you say, you can't just say, well, we'll all work remotely. Yeah. So it's it's it's really what will work specifically in your business sector. Yeah. And the more you can get employees to engage and feel part of decision making, ultimately the decisions are made by you know the powers that be within the organization. Yeah. But if you feel you can contribute to that in some way, if I look at what what we did within within Leroy Wellbeing Mina, you know, we we had some individuals who were saying, Can can I you know exit and work from my home country? Not necessarily something we'd thought about, but you know, that was something that uh more than one employee was asking about. And if their role allowed them them to do that, then then then why not? The challenge with that is it brings other issues, potential issues, because you then get into the realms of you know, other tax implications for those individuals now that relocating. So all of a sudden, something that appears quite simple, suddenly there are other factors that come into play and different layers, and then you've got to consider okay, is that something that's practical for us to do? And is it feasible also from a whole range of other factors that come into play?

SPEAKER_00 11:56

I'm gonna ask you a question, which I pretty much know the answer to, and uh you're gonna go, yes, and I'll try and phrase it not as a yes-no question, but has this crisis? I mean, again, we were talking, uh I was talking on a podcast with Signet Healthcare. They did the pulse survey, which was taken just sort of three or four weeks into the crisis. And the big thing that came out of that was actually, in terms of personal safety, in terms of emotional safety, actually, the vast majority of people felt very safe and secure because of the great communication and let's face it, the great job that the UE government were doing. But at the same time, two things can be true at the same time, but they were also job security fears, financial fears, um, and that workplace conversation was a lot shakier. And on that podcast, one of the things that came out was also this idea that when things are good, and let's face it, if we look at 2025, depending on what sector you were in, you know, it was kind of like that. So when time's good, poor leadership is hidden. And it's actually times like this year where the poor leadership gets exposed and exposed pretty quickly. Yeah. Um what should organizations be doing right now? Like, you know, if we talk about opportunity, particularly, you know, there's the old phrase every crisis is an opportunity. What should organizations be doing right now to kind of look just look in the mirror and go, all right, what's 2026 taught us so far?

SPEAKER_01 13:20

I think we've touched on it in terms of I mentioned autonomy, uh, is the balance between demands and and how that gets delivered. Yeah. So um a business will set you know demands on middle management and the and the employee base in terms of meeting the business objectives. Yeah, the more that you can uh get cont employees and middle management to feel that they have the autonomy to say, okay, well, for us to achieve that, this is the approach we can take. Yeah. And they feel part of that decision-making process. I think that for me is is is one of the things to to take out of uh you know the last sort of six to ten six to seven months. So I think that's a key factor for me. Psychological safety, I know that gets talked about now, I've been talking for many years about it. You have. But you know, that again is really around uh if you get the environment right where employees feel that they can put their hands up, chat, challenge, raise questions, yeah, maybe come up with some ideas. Some ideas might be quite crazy on initially, but they feel comfortable about putting them forward without any concern that they're going to be humiliated or viewed in a negative way. Yeah. Uh, because employees will come up with some great ideas and some great solutions. So as an employer, yeah, why wouldn't we want to hear those? Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 14:47

I'm not necessarily saying that you take it all on board, but some of the ideas will be, you know, potentially it's almost like exposing what has always been a classic almost failure of leadership when they don't listen. You know, they go, This is what a really great guy, Jeff, um, was talking on another podcast we were doing, we're saying it's time for us to stop doing well-being to that and actually figuring out what they need. And depending on what industry they're in, they need different things. Yeah, but that whole like what's going to work, you know, particularly in a situation like this, what do you actually need, you know, on the front line? Not what we think you need, but what do you actually need? And that, yeah, one, there needs to be the trust, perhaps, to have that two-way conversation.

SPEAKER_01 15:30

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 15:30

And is that and uh that that that this year seems to me almost like the word of the year is that trust.

SPEAKER_01 15:38

Absolutely. Uh, and it doesn't have to be anything major. I mean, we we had our team meeting here this morning. Yeah. Um, yeah, we have it every Tuesday morning. I don't run the team meeting. Yeah. So an individual in the team every month is nominated, they run the team meeting. Um, they put the pull the agenda together. Yeah, I put what I would like on the agenda, but it's not my agenda. Yeah. Yeah. So the whole team contributes, you know, whether it's our clinical operations team, whether it's the account management team, whether it's the learning and development team, they all have the opportunity to input to, you know, what are we going to do from a business perspective? What are the new ideas? Most of the team come up with the ideas in terms of new services, new initiatives that we're going to do in terms of you know promoting what we do and helping clients to promote uh and driving uh well-being within the organization. I you know, yes, I'm the MD, but I I don't sit here thinking I'm gonna come up with all the ideas and the solutions. We do it as a team. Now, the more you can develop that culture, then I just see it as a win. Democratizing innovation in a way.

SPEAKER_00 16:47

Yeah. Communication. Uh a few comments coming in. Um thank you very much for your observations. Uh Annamika, I hope uh hope I'm pronouncing your name right as well there. Uh, thank you for joining us on LinkedIn Live. Uh Scott, strangely enough, strong economies pour in money, pour in money on executive well-being and employee well-being programs. Whereas anxiety economies usually mean by cutting budgets from precisely the same verticals, helpers taking away when it's needed most. I think I think we'd both uh 100% agree with that, really. Particularly when we look at uh, and again, we were talking about the economics, you know, that the I'm gonna ask you, like you tell me you know about what you know the ROI of well-being versus the risk of not doing it from a financial perspective. When you sit down with businesses, when you sit down with your clients that you support, what's the message to them on that?

SPEAKER_01 17:36

First of all, we need to get to a point where we don't see well-being as a cost to business. Yeah. It's a cost, but not a cost to business. It's it's it's accepted that it's part of the operational strategy. Yeah. Yeah. You know, health and safety, we don't look at health and safety as a cost to business. No, it's part of the business strategy. Yeah, yeah. Yeah. We you know, we we we're fully behind that as any organization uh from a health and safety perspective. So why would we view well-being any differently? You know, there are safety factors around poor well-being within an organization. So, you know, that will have an impact. And you we talk about psychological safety from from the perspective that we've just spoken about, but also there's the psychological risk within an organization. You know, accidents and injuries within the the organization happen when people are not fully engaged on what they're doing. Yeah, now in certain industry sectors that's really dangerous, yeah. Yeah, but in any industry, whatever sector you're in, it has an impact on your your overall business performance, your productivity, and your bottom line profit. Yeah, so I I hope at some stage we get to the point, nobody nobody asks for data now on whether smoking is good for you or not. Yeah, it's accepted. Yeah, yeah. Yeah, I hope one day we'll get to the point where we say, yeah, we don't need to keep looking at the data because all the data's out there. Yeah, yeah, we accept it has a financial impact on our business, where positive impact if we can establish good well-being within the organization. So fine, let's go do it.

SPEAKER_00 19:18

I'm gonna give a shameless plug as well for um at mental. We wrote recently a big sort of playbook called Moving the Needle, and that focused on some of the best entries in the mental awards every year, which Paul is a judge of, and uh, Lyra being a kind sponsor of again this year. Uh, and Dolph Sky was one of the winners, and they came through because it very clearly was like safe to speak, and it was that um people could come forward and say, because they were operational, and also there was that element of physical harm if not fully present, to go, I'm not in the right mind for this today. Because and I know that for me, but also the safety of my colleagues around me, that I need to be able to put my hand up and say, I'm not 100% today. And and they've created that atmosphere of psychological safety, yeah, you know, and also you're not penalized if you turn around and do that. So that whole idea of safe to speak. Um, I've got to bring Rochelle in. Dr. Rochelle Cairns. Hello, Dr. Rochelle Cairns, how are you? Are you over in Australia? Are you joining us from down under? Uh welcome. Uh, thanks for joining us on LinkedIn Live as well. Uh, Dr. Rochelle is asking, what suggestions do you have for organizations to demonstrate to demonstrate trust in employees and build a culture of trusting upwards to managers, sideways to peers, and trust for those that they manage and how to lead, how may that lead to improved mental health well-being? And it's an interesting one, isn't it? Because if you're the manager, and there's loads of studies actually out there that if you're in middle management, you know, you often have some of the most negative mental health outcomes inside the organizations because you have responsibilities up to your leadership, to your board, to the PL, to the performance of your team, but responsibilities down as well. So that puts you in a really critical space. And I think there was a again a piece of research that said, actually, if I'm an employee and I walk into you know a company and I think I've got 100% autonomy over my well-being in there, actually, I've got 30%. And my line manager has an outsized impact on my well-being in the workplace. So that again, coming back to the word trust and what Rochelle's asking as well, how do we build that? You know, how do managers build the crook the culture of trust? How does the leadership build that culture of trust? Because it has to, you know, I know we talk about trickle down, and I ask really long questions, I'm aware of that, but it also needs to trickle up, isn't it? Yeah, there's there's no simple answer to that one.

SPEAKER_01 21:38

Oh come on. But it I I think I call it the sort of middle management bottleneck. Yeah. Yeah. So from the top down, the demands are there, and then it's the middle management now that is going to engage and communicate with the workforce in terms of meeting those demands. The middle management will experience you know some of the challenges. That at that level, the people they're managing are experiencing. So again, it's we put a lot of pressure on that middle management layer. Yeah. I think I think there is an expectation now as well-being is becoming more understood and accepted within the workplace. There's added pressure being put on middle management in terms of you need to show empathy, you need to be, you know, sort of psychological coaches in a way. Yeah. Fine, off you go. Yeah. But they don't do your stuff.

SPEAKER_00 22:32

But again, that needs support though, doesn't it?

SPEAKER_01 22:35

It needs you need more training, support, education, helping them to be able to do that. They're not there to be proxy psychologists. Yeah. And we need to recognize that. But we can help them in terms of identifying some of the subtle signs that you can see in individuals that may just lead you to question okay, is it it's okay to not be okay? Yeah. So what's going on for that person at the moment?

SPEAKER_00 23:04

I'm going to come back to that. I want to ask a question on that in a second. I'm just going to come back to Dr. Rochelle, who is indeed in Australia. So welcome to the great continent. That's such as the reach of mental space. But Dr. Rochelle has made a great point as well about the monetary cost to an organization through disengaged staff is huge. And the recruitment is expensive, but the kind of converse is true. And again, go and check out if you've not already signed up for our community at mentalcommunity.com, you can download our free copy of this moving the needle playbook. But we've also done exclusive research for this region around the cost to business per hour, even from disengaged employees versus the reward that's on offer. And to kind of put it into quantifiable terms, here in the UE, you know, businesses on an annual basis could be losing up to $45 billion a year. As I've said before, the data being there is flip side, as Dr. Rochelle says, converse being true, embrace well-being. There's $60 billion there on the table. You know, that's the potential for organizations that embrace well-being. So yeah, the data is there. And Dr. Rochelle, thanks for reminding me, because it's one of my favourite statistics. I love trotting that one out. But to come back to where we were saying, like for managers to see some of the signs and to be able to have that. And it's not just the managers, but also as Rachelle was saying also earlier, peer-to-peer. What are some of those signs? What you know, for for a for a manager or even for a leadership right now, what should they be looking for?

SPEAKER_01 24:38

Everybody's different, everybody's an individual. So you're really looking for subtle changes to the norm with that person that you're you're you're considering. Yeah. So it may be that you know, somebody who is performs in terms of their work is always pretty much 100% accurate all the time. They're always on time with whatever work you give to them. You don't have to chase them. Yeah. Yeah. All of a sudden now you're finding one or two errors. You may be now just having to remind them about the deadline that you set for them because you know that's getting close or it's gone beyond. These are subtle changes that and consistent is the other word. Not, you know, we can all have an off day. So it's where you see subtle changes on the consistent level that makes you just think that's not Scott. That's not the Scott I normally see. So why might that be? Okay, then you're gonna have to hopefully get into the conversation to to find out how we might be able to help Scott. What's going on in Scott's world that is I like the way I'm the one who's struggling. What's going on Scott's world that that is that is contributing to to those factors?

SPEAKER_00 25:52

It's I mean fiduce, uh is it fiduce, you know. Thank you for uh I think fiduce belongs to us all, don't we? We're all and we're all fiduce at the same time. He was talking about burnout being one of the major psychological risks. But I I I just find this whole kind of conversation really, really fascinating around. So, how do we get people to kind of come forward? You know, what's the what's the start? If you were to talk to a leader right now, just give me like a start, start, continue. What are you seeing out there where you think leaders should actually go? Look, that's wrong. Stop it. This is something you need to start. This is something that we just need to continue. Good question.

SPEAKER_01 26:31

There's usually one in a in an hour of the podcast. I think back to what I was saying at the beginning, to start to see well-being as as as not something it's the norm. Yeah. And it's important that I think we we recognize that. So don't see this as something that's been forced on you through the organization. Yeah. You know, well-being's now part of the organization. I have to do it. I'm a big fan of self-care. Yeah. Yeah. If we if we're going to really be successful with this, then practice what we preach. Yeah. Okay. Yeah. So you know, there's no point from a business perspective saying, well, the demands of the business are this. Therefore, yeah, I expect you to work, I don't expect you to work long hours, but I end up doing exactly the opposite.

SPEAKER_02 27:19

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 27:19

Yeah. I uh working long hours myself, and then I'm expecting that from my team. So setting boundaries, yeah. Um, those boundaries used to be there, you know, before we had the technology. Physically they were there. Yeah, there was no yeah, they were built into it. I'm old enough when you know before mobile phones and technology like that. So and you left.

SPEAKER_00 27:39

I was talking to a Gen Z the other day and I'm trying to explain to them what a fax machine is because that was the most sophisticated piece of technology in the office when I uh when I started working.

SPEAKER_01 27:49

But we had very clear boundaries. We did, yeah. You walked out of the office door and that was work done. Yeah, you went home and home life was completely separate. We don't have those boundaries now, those boundaries just don't exist, and so it's important that as managers we recognize that we have demands to meet, but we have employees that are working either in the office or or remotely or hybrid, you know. Yeah, and so we have to make sure that we we recognize some of the additional challenges that that brings, you know, that there isn't any defined line between you know the the end of the day and your personal life.

SPEAKER_00 28:31

Yeah. I mean that whole idea of work-life balance is actually a bit of a myth these days because life integration is what I prefer to talk about. And what happens in the office comes home with you, and what happens in at home comes into the office with you, and all that kind of stuff.

SPEAKER_01 28:44

And we have our mobiles, we're always we're 24-7 contactable if we don't manage it.

SPEAKER_00 28:49

Now, if just to focus on that middle management almost leadership as well. Traditionally, too many leaders look like me or you, which is a little bit long in the tooth. Nothing wrong with that. Well, you're looking very handsome, like I know, you can pay me later. Um but this whole kind of concept that they're leaders or they're managers of processes, and that's what they were hired to do, they were never trained to be leaders of people. And increasingly, you know, I know that AI puts more demands on us, and AI could is almost we thought, oh, this is gonna make life easier for us. Actually, no, this is gonna be just means that bosses now think we can do more work. But within all of that, if managers are no longer having to manage processes so much because AI is looking after that, is that the opportunity for them to retrain and go? I mean, some people, some some leaders I've worked with were never going to be good with people. But that's increasingly the management role, you know, is to facilitate it, to look after it, to develop, it's to grow, it's to foster a culture of innovation as opposed to this process needs to get from there to there, because a lot of that can now be automated.

SPEAKER_01 30:00

Yeah, whether it's automated or not, that still needs to be done. But but we ultimately come back to we're we're managing a team, a team of human beings at the end of the day. Yeah. And for all the things we've just discussed, that there are factors now that we didn't experience previously before. Yeah. So as a manager being a manager today is very different to you know 20, 30 years ago when when I was in management then. You know, it was more at a I would say at a basic level, which was the demands are there and a good manager makes sure the demands get met and the work gets done.

SPEAKER_02 30:33

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 30:34

Um, we we have to deal with it a lot, we have to be more empathetic today. Sounds easy, but you know, within the team, I have a relatively small team, you know, there's 20 of us. Yeah. Um, but they're 20 individuals. Yeah. So you know, you can't operate in the same way with with uh that group as as one homogenous group. Yeah, they're all 20 individuals. Yeah. And when you take into account then in terms of I come back to again self-care, uh, if I am honestly going to truly be mindful of you as a team member's well-being, but I don't bother myself, then again, it's the trust element. Well, you're not modeling it. If you're not modeling it, well then why why would you expect me to to do the same? Or you know, so we've got to be mindful of how we position that. We've got to be mindful of of looking after ourselves. It's not about being selfish, it's about saying, you know, if you if we're self-care is not selfish. No, if you go on a plane, you're going through the security, the the safety exercise at the bit at the beginning of the flight. What do they talk about when the mask drops down? Yeah, fingering off. You put yours on first before you look after your wife and kids or who whoever. And it's the same principle. Self-care puts you in a better position to to manage that within your team. Another good point from Dr. Rochelle.

SPEAKER_00 31:59

It's great to have a specialist with us today as well.

SPEAKER_01 32:01

I've got three on the podcast.

SPEAKER_00 32:03

Well, two. But yeah, I and and Dr. Rissa was saying encouraging and supporting annual and personal leave is vital, and not just time off where work is jammed in before and after the leave, but actually handing over and and and staff being able to actually take their leave. With the work that you do and the organizations you do, where are we on that? Because I have seen and some great entries in the awards where they've gone, no, no, no, no, you know, leave has to be taken. And it isn't just around, I mean, sometimes there are business critical periods of time, yeah, but at the same time, it's not that don't bank it up, you know. It's how important is that leave in terms of absolutely yeah.

SPEAKER_01 32:40

Uh my team will tell you that I'm a big enforcer of you take your annual leave, yeah. And your annual leave is annual leave for you to recharge. Yeah. Yeah. Um so occasionally, depending on on you know, the the pressures of work, you know, team member might say, I'm gonna take my laptop with me just in case. And I refuse. Yeah, your laptop's not going on on your annual leave. That's not what that leave is for. You know, I I often say, you know, if we can put the same amount of effort and focus into our ourselves in terms of leave is a time to recharge as we put into our mobile phones. Yeah.

unknown 33:18

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 33:19

Guaranteed they're all we all have a plug at the side of the bed and we all plug our phone in. Yeah. And we cannot imagine waking up the next morning with a 2% charge on our phone because that phone would be of no use to us. The same mindset, you know, whether it's sleep, whether it's um taking time out from work for annual leave, that's our reach recharge time. Vitally important.

SPEAKER_00 33:41

You could be proud of your brother as well, Dr. Rochelle, because it just Paul just reminded me in our playbook, we've got 40 different tactics from 40 different organizations. But Scott Cairns, who runs Creation Business Consultants, one of the things that stood out for judges in the awards was the uh no laptop, you can't take your lap your work laptop home, which uh they were really impressed with as a as a plan. Uh, I'm gonna talk to you about the awards if you can, because we've we kind of crossed the the threshold of the first sort of 35 minutes, and I I guess we'll hang around for another 15-20 minutes. But just you know, around the awards, you've been involved in the awards now for two years as a judge. What stood out to you? So the the best entries that you saw, what could they teach other organizations?

SPEAKER_01 34:25

I think I mean it's 12 months ago now since I was judging them. So I'm just I was trying to.

SPEAKER_00 34:30

And it has been a busy year, I will give you that.

SPEAKER_01 34:32

In terms of the awards and the the entrants, I think from memory, it was amazing how some of the awards stood out. Um, I could actually feel something within the the the paper that they put forward and justification for it. You could passion. You could see you could feel the vibe, the passion. And I think I think where where companies can involve employees as part of their entry, employee input, I think that's a big factor. Um, and I think don't don't see the initiatives, don't need to be big, massive initiatives that you're putting in place. We've just mentioned about you know annual leave. Yeah, yeah. Simple things like that. There are lots of things you can do from a well-being perspective that actually don't cost money, yeah, but it's back to the culture, it's back to the environment that you're breeding within the organization. You don't necessarily need money to achieve that. So that for me is is is a I think it's it's the vibe that I got from certain entries that just stood out, that you could feel that it it they believed in what they were doing.

SPEAKER_00 35:44

Is that one I don't know, because I'm I'm trying to think, you know, if this conversation, if anyone's kind of thinking of entering uh the mental awards, and we'll put the uh mentalawards.com anyway, you'll find is there. Um I'm gonna ask you to do a bit of a soft self for that in a moment, but if we're thinking about what organizations can kind of like adopt, I mean, we saw some great examples of you know some of the best entries being around well-being champions, not necessarily at the top, but just finding those people that are passionate within the organization and then giving that autonomy in a way. I mean, what's your experience been, you know, with some of the best workplaces that you've worked for, or how important is that to find those champions inside your business?

SPEAKER_01 36:25

A part of what we do is training around um, we have a training program mental health and well-being in the workplace, which is about training and and helping identify well-being champions. Yeah. And then training them with some of the soft skills to identify some of the subtle changes I was talking about. I think the first thing we need to understand is there is still stigma attached to mental health. Yes. Yeah. Yes. And so, you know, uh data shows that you know, nine out of ten people historically have concern that if they raise their hands and say I've got a mental health issue, that they'll experience stigma. Yeah. So why would I want to put my hands up and even suggest that I'm experiencing some mental health challenges at the moment? So if I can find people within an organization that I understand have had some training and will be more aware of maybe the challenges I'm currently experiencing, uh, have more empathy to what I'm going to maybe have a conversation about, then I'm more likely to reach out to them. So I I think that's that's that's the thing I would say.

SPEAKER_00 37:35

I'm gonna step off the wards for a second and go back into workplace culture because Isabella has um uh posted the question. Isabella, thank you very much for your for your question. She's saying on a lighter note, the flyer uh mentions World Cup late nights. Uh I put that in there because it's breaking me Sunday night 3 a.m. But yeah, there will be a lot of people out there right now that actually are, you know, like a little bit afraid because quite right, you know, quite understandably, they're dialing into the World Cup. Uh, what approaches can managers take to balance flexibility around major global events with maintaining productivity? I like that. Major global events. Isabella, you phrased that really, really well. So obviously the World Cup is won, but yeah.

SPEAKER_01 38:18

Yeah, it it may very well be if a team member's team was playing early hours of that morning that maybe you're not setting uh a business objective too early on the following day. You know, things like that. And that's just one example of things that can just part of everyday life that can have an impact on our sleep. Sleep is vital. Yeah. Um you know, it's critical to our overall well-being and and how we feel. We know if we don't have a great night's sleep, we don't feel great the next morning. And it's not, you know, there's always the argument is is it is it does it have to be eight hours? Is it eight hours of sleep? No, not really. Everybody's different. I think from a sleep perspective, it's really about changes in your sleep pattern. That's where it would highlight the you know the triggers. So I think again, it's about flexibility, autonomy, you know.

SPEAKER_00 39:09

And that kind of I suppose again, sort of knowing your people in a way, really, isn't it? Because you'll know who's you know, I imagine this morning, um my wife was really wanting Germany to do well. She supports Germany just to annoy the hell out of me. Um, but they obviously went out this morning, you know, the Netherlands. Yeah, but then you'll have some Morocco fans this morning as well, you know, you know, working in the region that wanted to watch the game and they'll be jubilant, that sort of thing.

SPEAKER_01 39:33

It's just knowing who you people are and what absolutely, absolutely, and and and recognizing that everybody's different. Yeah, yeah. I maybe can stay up till 3 a.m. watching football and be fine the next day. I am not one of those people. Well, I I'm not in truth, but you know, there may be people like that. But the the reality is we're talking about football, but it can be anything. Yeah, you know, even during the the the conflict period that we had. Yeah, people were struggling with sleep. People were struggling with sleep, yeah. It affected everybody differently. So it's it's I think it's like anything, it's treating each individual as an individual, and the skill is the empathy as a manager to recognize that and and decide how you you know you can manage that situation.

SPEAKER_00 40:16

Do we need to recognise as well? Like because it's kind of too, and again, this whole thing where it used to be one size fits all, and it used to be it seemed like it was, yeah, as you say, being in management was simple. It's do this, if you didn't do it, you know, you work for the high road. Whereas now, you know, management, leadership, workplace culture, it's very much three-dimensional. As you say, you've got 20 different people in your team. The trick is trying to get those 20 people just to not all be the same, but maybe just face the same direction. And how do you get them to all work towards that one purpose, which is productivity, as far as an organization's concerned? So give me your some thoughts around that secret source because you are we are trying to unite different people from different backgrounds, different religions, different ages, different cultures around a common purpose.

SPEAKER_01 41:05

Yeah. Do we really want everybody the same? I would I would argue not. Identify people as as they are, that they're different, they have different skill sets. You know, some people would have a preference for more structured management to say, be clear about what you want me to do there and give me a timeline, and that's what I want, and I work to that. Yeah. Um, we have others who want more autonomy, yeah. And we just need to be mindful of that. You know, certainly, you know, when we're talking about the different generations now, then you know, autonomy is just an accepted part for the younger generation. Yeah, I want to be able to use my own thought process, my skill set. I want to be able to make my own decisions to a degree.

SPEAKER_00 41:53

Why do you think management's so resistant to that? Because you know, I I think particularly these days, that innovations is you know is the key to long-term business success. It's not just stagnating and doing one thing, well, you know, the the Kodaks or the Nokia's of the world that never changed and then died. But where why are we still at a management level still so afraid of this or still so unable to foster that? I mean, I I I guess I would say the the strongest elements in the mental awards were those organizations that did foster that spirit of innovation and communication and psychological safety. It's a new challenge. We fear change.

SPEAKER_01 42:38

Not everybody does, but we're human beings. Most of us are, you know, don't necessarily aren't necessarily comfortable with change. But there are plenty of people out there that if there isn't change, that's a frustration for them. Yes. Yeah. Uh they thrive on change. And then you've probably lots of us somewhere in the middle. We're okay with change, we can cope with it. Um, so again, it's back to I suppose as a manager it's a lot easier, just if I can get away with treating everybody as one the same, then that makes life easy for me. But the outcome in terms of performance and everything, no, that's not going to work. It might have done in the past, yeah, 30 years ago, and Nokia was fine. Nokia that we know in today's market, you know, it it has a reliability element to it, but it doesn't do anywhere near what it was. It's the giant you know the iPhone and other, you know, sort of uh Samsung, not advertising any make or model, but you know, or the phones are are available. Uh we expect more of technology, then why shouldn't we expect more of management in terms of how they respond and work with us?

SPEAKER_00 43:48

I'm gonna just kind of link back to the World Cup as well. Uh if you are the manager of a football club right now, you know, you don't try and get everybody to do the same role, every player on the field. Is playing a different role. And you don't put someone who's a left footer on the right hand side or someone that can't catch a ball in the goal. You know, is it it it's trying to fit the roles and the individuals to the roles that they're brilliant and surfacing that passion ability and a team of 11 individuals never wins anything. He's almost gone in with a microp moment there. They think it's all over, but it isn't yet because we've still got another about 10 minutes or so. If you want to ask Paul some questions as well, or you just want to pose some thoughts, please keep them coming in. Thanks for staying with us. Really appreciate your company today. Also, I just want to come back to the awards as well, because you know, for me, that the awards, the mental awards, are not about handing someone a trophy one night of the year, but it's about you know the work recognizing the work they've been doing. But you know, this is the second year that you've been a judge, this is the second year that Lyra Wellbeing is supporting as a brand sponsor. Why was that important to you?

SPEAKER_01 44:52

Important to me both from uh a Lyra perspective and from a personal perspective. Yeah. I came here 16 years ago. Mental health, not only not on the agenda, you just don't mention it. Yeah. Well-being not on the agenda, and you know, we pay you their salary and people do a job. What what what do you think?

SPEAKER_00 45:12

They're lucky to have a job.

SPEAKER_01 45:13

Yeah, yeah. So that was the environment I came into. So you know, the first number of years it was really around trying to educate what what I mean, what you know by by mental health well-being, the importance of that from a workplace perspective. So not I felt not only as an ambassador, I was supposed starting a movement. Um and I've always been in my time here, I've always been open to engaging with people that were trying to achieve the same objective. You being one in terms of what you know what you've done over the years with with mental. So I'm I'm I've always been keen to try and support people like that that are really just jumping on the same bus as me and and going to the same destination. So, you know, that it was a bit of a no-brainer from my perspective.

SPEAKER_00 46:06

I suppose as well. I mean, it's it's it, but it is an interesting one because you see there within any organization as well, you know, you have people there that are tasked with looking after well-being, and that that in itself can be quite a challenging role, particularly in organizations where maybe the leadership aren't as bought in, or maybe they're tick boxing. I think one of the things I love most about the awards is is the way that I know this they say it takes the village. You know, when you get to those awards and you see last year we had 400 people who all care about well-being, you know, that sense of, well, there is a community out there and there are people, you know, and it's been interesting this year to actually dive in and write this playbook around moving the needle around the awards to go, actually, there is quite a lot being done out there. And you must see this through the Lyra lens that actually in some organizations there are some really good things happening, we just perhaps don't talk about them enough.

SPEAKER_01 46:59

Yeah, absolutely.

SPEAKER_00 47:00

We don't celebrate them enough.

SPEAKER_01 47:01

No, we see, I mean, we've what over 700 corporate clients, and we see if we're talking about our EAP engagement levels from like five or six percent and to like 60 percent. Yeah, yeah. Now the EAP that we're delivering is fundamentally is the same. So what's driving whether you're five or six or anywhere in between, or up to sixty percent, is it's primarily the company culture. And what as an organization are they are they truly living and breathing well-being as part of that business strategy, or is it more of a tick box? Yeah, yeah. Our organizations that we work with are doing some amazing things, you know, and we're actually just running uh program at the moment in terms of to our clients to say, look, here's a bit of an objective. Let's talk about what you're currently doing within your own organization. Yeah, yeah. Prepare a video, put something together along the lines of mental, in terms of not an award as such, but yeah, you're what are you doing to drive engagement?

SPEAKER_00 48:06

I think that's an interesting thing. That if we because here's I think this is almost like the central challenge of the awards, in a way, of the mental awards, is what are you doing? Now tell me the story of what you're doing. Yes. And actually, are you capturing all of you know that story as you go? Because so many organizations I see like you never focus on that storytelling bit, but it's like, how do you build a culture of psychological safety, or how do you finish a book if you never actually capture anything along the way and tell that story and celebrate those milestones? So I think if it was to build the, you know, boil the rewards down to it, it's capturing the story of what you're doing well, yeah, and then telling the organization, because then other people can read your story, get inspired by that story, and maybe to take some tactics, and that's you know, that rising tide lifts all boats or boots, boats. It's boats, lifts all boats. I've probably lost my point there. But no, but it is that kind of like as you say, the engagement. So you know, and what is the difference then between that six percent and the 60%? What do you see the 60% doing different to the six percent?

SPEAKER_01 49:11

At the sort of 30, 40, 50, 60 percent, you generally see whatever they do within the organization, yeah, well-being is just automatically part of it. Yeah, it isn't it's not a oh, is is this does this sit under the umbrella of well-being? No, it doesn't. Okay. It it doesn't matter. Whatever it is from a business strategic point of view that they're implementing, well-being automatically becomes part of that process. You probably feel it when also as well. You can feel it when you go into a building, yeah, different companies. You you can get a vibe of healing, yeah. And you think definitely this has been not just the surroundings, yeah. There is often a vibe where you think this feels a nice place. Yeah, that could probably work here.

SPEAKER_00 49:56

I always think that's like it it's not quantifiable, but it is quantifiable at the same time about how it feels good to be in a business where they make the effort to make sure that you feel good in there. Even yeah, and if you're the leader of an organization, it actually feels good as a leader to walk down your corridors and see vibrant conversation and see energy and see people smiling. Smiles on the faces. Smiles on the faces. And actually, when you're looking at it, you should be perhaps looking at it in two ones. One, emotionally, that's good for me. But two, financially, that's actually really good for the business.

SPEAKER_01 50:33

Yeah, absolutely. Absolutely.

SPEAKER_00 50:35

We're getting towards the end of the time now. Uh, addressing AI-driven, well, fiduciary here again for us. Uh addressing AI-driven workforce anxiety is a growing psychosocial risk. That's an interesting one, isn't it? AI-driven workforce anxiety. What do you what are your thoughts around that? Because as I was saying before, it's an it's a really interesting one. It's a great tool for productivity, but it's a bit like you remember I I always remember the kind of inbox zero, and we were told to chase inbox zero. In fact, all you ever do is create more space for more work to fill that. So you're actually on a conveyor belt that just gets faster and faster and faster.

SPEAKER_01 51:14

Yeah, good question. Uh, it's the uncertainty of it all, isn't it? AI's here. Yeah, it's you know, we can't get away from that. Um, AI has always been positioned as um, it's not necessarily taking your job away, but it'll take away the mundane tasks to free you up to do more things.

SPEAKER_00 51:32

I wanted to do more things.

SPEAKER_01 51:33

Uh well, and that's the question then is what does that mean? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, it's a bit like for me, it's a bit like um you know, the move from five days working week to four days. Yeah. Okay. In principle, that's fine, and there's data to show that there are benefits in doing that, but simply just moving from five to four on its own, you potentially can now have more negatives. What you don't want is five days work going into four days. So as part of that move from five to four. You have to examine how the work is delivered, how the work gets delivered. What the work instructions. So you have to look at the bigger piece. It's the same with AI, you know. Okay, it may have benefit there. What does that mean overall? And if if I'm just replacing the mundane with increased work of other forms, then we come back to burnout, which we do was talking about earlier in the podcast.

SPEAKER_00 52:30

I'm gonna be selfish and ask you um if an organization hasn't entered uh the awards to date, and this year is our fourth year. Last year we represented, we had more than a quarter of a million uh employees represented across the region at the awards last year. But if an organization hasn't entered yet, why would why should they? What do you see the benefit of?

SPEAKER_01 52:49

First of all, do yeah, do enter again to be potentially successful and winning. Everybody wants to win awards, everybody wants to be recognized, everybody wants to be appreciated for things that they do. I think if you're putting yourself in for an award, as I said earlier, it doesn't have to be this major initiative that you've put in. It can be very simple things, yeah. But you can evidence that it's added real value to you and your organization. There are multiple business sectors, you know, that that the awards are in. So there will be an award.

SPEAKER_00 53:24

I think you try to get every single one already. But and it's good to know that you've got 700 clients, so I can expect 700 entries this year. That's going to be great. We do promote it. I know you do. I know you do. I know, thank you very much for that. And I re and again we do appreciate the sport this year as well. Actually, just to say, you do still have time to actually write your own story for the awards. Uh, entries are open. Uh go to mentalawards.com. We will also put that link in the in the show notes, but uh the deadline is not until uh the end of September. So you could start something now and still have meaningful data by the time the deadline's up. I think that's also an important thing that stood out to me in the awards as well, is actually not just intention, but measuring the image.

SPEAKER_01 54:06

Yeah, yeah, absolutely. You always need data.

SPEAKER_00 54:08

And I think perhaps that's the that's the biggest opportunity for right now, even for well-meaning companies, is to go, right, we're gonna do this, but how can we capture what we're doing?

SPEAKER_01 54:16

Absolutely. Like anything, you you need the data outcomes to support it. I think the other thing as well, uh I would always promote is it's a time to reflect and be open about the things that you may have tried that didn't actually work. Yeah, so we can all learn from that.

SPEAKER_00 54:33

Uh that seems to be something as well. I love that. Let's end on failure in a way. But that is something we always are afraid of. But actually, we learn as much individually, but I would say organizationally as well about what doesn't work. You know, if you look at the you know, the age-old story of the guy, the scientist that invented the light bulb, you know, and it was like uh you failed 99 times. It's like, no, 99 times I've discovered how not to make a light bulb, but then then on the hundredth attempt, he gets it. So it that's part and parcel of innovation, developing evolution, though we should actually just create environments and organizations where we can fail. It's back to the psychological safety.

SPEAKER_01 55:13

To psychological safety, an environment where I think, let me try this. It it hopefully it will work. Yeah. Oh no, maybe it hasn't. Okay, fine. Or maybe we identify why it didn't work. Yes, and we tweak it a bit. Yes, and it ends up being that's science, though, isn't it? It is marvelous.

SPEAKER_00 55:33

Right. Well, uh, it's uh two minutes to go. Um, I just want to say thank you very much for everyone who has joined us, you know, from across the world. Um Baduce, Neri, uh Dr. Rochelle, Zubia, uh, Anamika, Isabella, uh, all thank you very much for your questions and your thoughts. So really appreciate you joining us live. I hope you've enjoyed the conversation half as much as I have. Uh, this conversation will also be going on to YouTube as a podcast. We're gonna put it on our podcast channels. If you're watching this on YouTube, please uh subscribe, push that button, it's just there. It helps us more than you know. And likewise, if you uh do catch up on this on our podcast channels, you're doing us a massive favour if you just go on there and give us a rating. Five stars, obviously five stars, but yeah, but get involved and actually support the mission. But uh once again, um Paul Fluff, Lyra, Wellbeing, Mina, thank you very much for the support. But also thanks for the insights this week.

SPEAKER_01 56:23

No, you're welcome. I enjoyed it.

SPEAKER_00 56:25

And and that's all from us uh today. Thank you very much. Join us soon again on the Mental Space Live. And now I'm gonna get up and going to turn the camera off. Cheers.