Burnout, Silence and Survival: The Real State of Mental Health in Marcomms

The marketing and communications industry runs on creativity, relationships and judgement. But what happens when the people behind the work are exhausted, anxious, always on and afraid to speak up?

In this special webinar and podcast episode, Scott Armstrong, founder of mentl, brings together leaders from across the regional marcomms industry to unpack the PRCA MENA Mental Health Report 2025 and ask what the findings really mean for agencies, clients, leaders and young professionals.

The report points to a clear warning: anxiety, stress, exhaustion and depression are not isolated issues. They are signs of a system under sustained pressure.

Joining the conversation are John Rynehart, Managing Director Middle East at Kekst CNC and Chair of the PRCA MENA Mental Health Committee; Sinead O’Connor, Senior Director at Current Global MENAT, Mental Health First Aider and Agency Culture Champion; Tania Kteily, Associate Director at Weber Shandwick MENAT and President of the MEPRA Youth Board; and Lester Posner, strategic communications advisor, Trustee of GamCare, and a voice on leadership, policy and compassionate workplace culture.

Together, they explore why awareness is no longer enough, why burnout can be hidden behind performance, why younger professionals are challenging old ideas of boundaries, and why mental health must become part of business strategy rather than a campaign week or HR side project.

This is a conversation about pressure, leadership, culture, clients, boundaries and the urgent need to move from talking about mental health to changing the way work is designed.

Topics include:

• Why anxiety, stress, exhaustion and depression point to a system under pressure
• What burnout looks like inside agency life before someone says “I am burnt out”
• Why mental health awareness has not yet translated into consistent action
• The pressure on younger professionals and why Gen Z is challenging old work norms
• Why peer support matters, but cannot replace trusted managers and formal systems
• How stigma still stops people from speaking up at work
• Why leaders must stop passing pressure down to their teams
• What the Mental Health Charter offers the marcomms industry
• Why performative wellbeing can increase resentment and disengagement
• What agencies, clients and industry bodies can do next

10-point chapter list

00:00 Welcome and why marcomms needs this conversation
02:00 Anxiety, stress, exhaustion and depression: what the report reveals
04:25 What burnout looks like inside agency life
05:47 The younger professional perspective and Gen Z’s mental health awareness
07:15 Key PRCA MENA Mental Health Report findings
09:04 Awareness versus action: why ticking boxes is not enough
13:56 Leadership, stigma and why only some people feel supported
20:25 Psychological safety, peer support and trust in managers
22:05 The Mental Health Charter and moving from framework to action
25:06 What leaders should stop doing immediately
30:29 Gen Z, boundaries and the future of work
39:14 The business case: turnover, disengagement and culture
45:03 Compassion, psychological safety and collective responsibility
48:59 Performative wellbeing, well-washing and authenticity
53:04 Audience questions: values, courage and speaking up
55:19 Be brave: the closing message for leaders and teams

Transcript

SPEAKER_04 0:04

Welcome to everyone. This is a special webinar today discussing the state of mental health in Marcom. If anyone wasn't stressed, here's another reason for you to feel anxious about what's really happening. Particularly, leaders should be feeling anxious about what's really happening in the marketing and communication space. Why do we need this conversation? Well, the PRCA mean a mental health report 2025 said that nearly half of us face exhaustion and anxiety. More than one in three will have a faced depression in the past year. As you know, I'm Scott Antro. I'm the founder of Mental, but I am joined by four people who bring a raft of expertise and perspectives to the conversation. We have John Reinhart, who is the managing director of Middle East at Kesk CNC, and he's also importantly chair of the PRCA MENA Mental Health Committee. And he will help us understand what the report is all telling us about the industry. We've got Sinead O'Connor, who is a senior director at Current Global Mina. She is a mental health first aider and she is an agency culture champion, and she is super passionate about mental health. We also have Tanya Khatili, who is the associate director at Weber Shanwick MENA and president of the MEPRA Youth Board. And she'll be bringing the perspective of younger professionals and, of course, future industry leadership. And we have Lester Posner, who is a strategic communications advisor, trustee of GamCare, and a voice on leadership policy and reputation. Some of what we're going to be discussing today is sensitive. So please recognize that this is for awareness and first-ever conversation. This is not clinical advice. None of us are clinicians in this call today. And do check yourself. If you do feel that you need support, don't hesitate to reach out. One of the things I always say is, you know, you are not alone. And please reach out to your friends, colleagues, families, or professionals if you do need support. John, I'm going to start with you, if I may. Yeah. The report showed that anxiety and stress were reported in quite an alarming fashion. 43% were some of the top problems, and exhaustion, 41%, and depression at 36%. I mean, when we look at figures like that and you put them all together, what does that kind of say about the emotional load that the industry is dealing with?

SPEAKER_03 2:18

Well, firstly, thank you very much, Scott, for having the industry come together at such an important time and appreciate the opportunity to talk through the PRCA MENA mental health report. And delighted to be with my colleagues. And thank you to those who have taken their time out this afternoon to join us. Look, I think what that's showing, Scott, is there's four areas that don't just exist in isolation. They do form a cycle. So anxiety and stress create the conditions for exhaustion, and sustained exhaustion can quite easily tip into depression, as we know. So what the report is showing us is that um they're not four separate problems. It's a system that's under sustained pressure. We know that the demands of the marketing communications industry is very, very significant. But the word that really stands out for me personally is exhaustion. Anxiety and stress are acute. They can spike at different points depending on the circumstances. But exhaustion, as we know, is chronic. And so it means people are not recovering between demands, they're always up here. And what we know is we need to come down, we need to be able to find the respite and the recovery and the opportunity to refill the tank. The tank is not refilling, and that's a real problem for our industry. So we know that our industry runs on three key areas creativity, strong relationships, and sound judgment. So if all three of those are casualties of an exhausted workforce, that's a real issue for our industry. So it's not just a well-being issue either, it's a performance and quality issue that also, for those of us in consultancy, also need to recognize that clients should also care about this as well. So it's a it's a it's a full circle between client and agency relationships as well.

unknown 4:13

You're right.

SPEAKER_04 4:14

Sinead, I'll I'll bring you in, Sinead, if I can. Um what you know, when you hear John describing that, you know, anxiety, stress, exhaustion, um, what does that look like actually the agency life? What are you seeing showing up?

SPEAKER_01 4:26

Yeah, I think it shows up in lots of ways, right? I think, um, and I've spoken to you about this before, Scott, in our industry, but there are sort of clear areas where stress and burnout and exhaustion happens. One is especially what's going on at the moment, being constantly exposed to the news, um, really being on top of regional affairs, global affairs, etc. But also outside of that, what's the sort of cultural moment and always being on? Let's just call it that. Then I think, you know, as a consultancy, as John rightly says, um, we are the um the piece that gets the tightest squeeze at the end. And so client demands um creates quite can create quite a stressful environment. I think they're probably the two main things.

SPEAKER_04 5:11

Um no, um, and also to the guests uh joining us today, you can actually pose questions via the QA box. Um, I'll keep an eye on that and I'll endeavor to ask the panel and put your questions to the panel. So please um get involved, ask your questions, and we will have a couple of polls as well where we're gonna gauge your thoughts. Um yeah, I wanted to bring you in, Tanya, um, because I mean for you for the younger generation coming in, uh it's been you know accelerating, accelerating, accelerating. And then also, of course, we've had the the most recent situation. Um, how are young people dealing with this? What what are you seeing with them through the Mapro Youth Board?

SPEAKER_00 5:52

Um, hi everyone. Um, thank you, Scott. I think the younger generation, I talk um Gen Z specifically, considering I'm uh I'm a millennial, the very end, but still a millennial. But I'm seeing from the youth board, uh even from younger colleagues and everything. I think um this younger generation has a lot to teach us all. Um, there is, yes, there is um, of course, a lot of adjustment. Um, the news and everything happening around us, the pace and all those things are overwhelming. But um the new generation, Gen Z, uh, is very aware of mental health, is very aware of you know self-care. Um and certain stats and certain reports show that actually uh this comes more than financial before financial security, which if you think about it, uh the same way you think about your health, your physical health, mental health should also come first before anything else. So um there it is definitely there are a lot of um questions. Uh there's a lot of guidance needed, especially in situations like these. But I think uh Tatouai thing, and um, we have a lot to learn from younger generations uh on that front as well.

SPEAKER_04 7:04

John, I think it's gonna be worth could you just kind of give us a helicopter view of some more of the findings in the report and just talk to us about, you know, about that report you've been doing and what you've been seeing year on year, what's been changing out there?

SPEAKER_03 7:18

Yeah, of course, Scott. So I'll just give a quick overview of some of the sort of key statistics we're seeing uh coming through in that particular report. So 97% say mental health matters. So that's clear, that's coming through. People recognize uh that we need to look at mental health within the workplace. Um, and also interestingly, 85% say the workplace actually shapes mental health at all. So it's indicating that you know our work environment impacts our mental health. Uh, long hours, 29%, high workload at 27%, uh, work-related stress all sitting at 45%. You know, these are these are numbers that clearly aren't acceptable. And we as an industry need to be working together collectively. It's no point just putting together numbers and revealing survey results. The industry needs to continue to recognize that we take a step forward and we start to make steps that actually do make an impact. And that comes through leadership critically. It needs to be led from uh from the front. We need to be making decisions which impact work environments, which help to alleviate some of the stresses and strains that we find. And particularly given the current context, we know it's been elevated in the last few months. The demands are so significant. And so, whilst these statistics are important, we have to continue to do this work. The industry now needs to take the step forward and take some action. And that's the next phase that I truly believe we're at.

SPEAKER_04 8:49

I think you were mentioning that, weren't you, Tania? Um, in the you uh you were we were saying before we started the conversation that actually the report showed that there was high awareness, but then we've got this kind of gap between awareness and action. What is it you think we should be doing? You know, you obviously with the Map3 Youth Board. Tell us about some of the things you're actually trying to do to create change.

SPEAKER_00 9:13

Yes, um, absolutely, I totally agree. And I think we can't generalize really. There is awareness in different stages in different uh parties. And this is why when we are uh you know looking at an industry initiative versus an in-house or an in-agency that's a bit different. I'm gonna talk to you a bit about um how I see it from both sides. How see it from the youth board, where it's more of an industry initiative, and then how I see it internally at Weber Shandwick. Um, I think awareness is very, very important and it's starting to get there. And I think with the youth board specifically, considering it's not, we don't only uh focus on mental health, it's part of the equation. We've turned it actually last year or the previous years, it used to be one of our main pillars. This year we've changed it. Uh, it's not one of the three pillars, it's something, it's an ongoing conversation. Um, when we kicked after the situation and everything that's happened, and we were constantly having our meetings, we've made it very, very clear that the priority remains everyone's well-being, and we're not there to tick boxes. From my perspective, yes, we do have you know targets, we do want to make things happen for the younger community as part of our efforts within the youth board. But my main priority remains that the youth board members who have you know full-time jobs, who have, you know, commitment and everything are okay first and foremost. And I did get a lot of support from you know MAPRA overall on that front. And um, that was the first step. And then uh we've tailored whatever we had to offer, the plans we wanted to bring to life, all those things based on what people are able to handle in that situation. Because at the end of the, yes, we want results, but I also don't want people burning out just so that we've tick boxes, we tick boxes, and then yeah, we're showing that you know we're doing well. So that was one of the things that we've started with. So a lot of the times it doesn't need to be something that you, I don't know, we put on LinkedIn or a big title that this is what we did to support mental health health. Sometimes it's actually the choosing to not to do that is how you've taken care of someone or uh sent that message. Um, and then once we saw obviously that people were able to support, were able to do things, wanted to do those things, we've started thinking of bringing things to life that get people together from a community perspective. Uh, we've had uh the mental health walk last week as well, which was which we introduced back in October, which was a result of a brainstorm from the youth board. So um we started those small initiatives, and then we regularly kind of share advice, share, uh, use it as a platform to give people a chance to speak, to ask their questions, um, to see how we can support and contribute as and when. So this is overall from a uh youth board perspective, and that's an ongoing conversation. That's something we share within tips, which we share within any initiative we roll out. It's an ongoing conversation as opposed to a box we want to tick. Versus when I'm um in my day-to-day job, uh unlike you know, even someone else maybe on this call, um, I'm a bit in the mid-management as a senior account director. So I do work uh closely with leadership without being you know the one who takes the decisions or activates things, at the same time working with uh younger generations, um, with associates, executives, uh managers who are kind of um who recently or have less years of experience. And of course, in this situation, it's a bit different than the discord where there's a bit maybe less flexibility, but it's more uh ongoing conversation. It's more showing that they have a platform to speak. And I think Weber is one of the places that really supports that, which is great to see leadership advocating for things like that. And that's what I would encourage everyone to do. Show people that there is a platform to speak. Show people that they can they, I'm a mental health first aider myself. There are multiple mental health first aiders. Show people that they can speak, they can discuss, um, we can kind of you know uh find solutions. John touched on something very important is um, you know, clients taking that into consideration as well. And at the end of the day, we're all humans and don't forget that human side. Yes, we all want results, yes, we all want to achieve things, we're all passionate about what we're doing, but don't forget the human side of it in the end. And that's my motto. Put the human first, and then everything else will come afterwards.

SPEAKER_04 13:31

Too early for a microp moment. Thank you. I do sorry, yeah. Lester, I just wanted to bring you in because um from that leadership perspective and from your experience there, what are these numbers telling us about the way that the industry defines performance?

SPEAKER_02 13:56

Yeah, well, I think the numbers I think paints, as you say, a very um stark picture. And the ones that I particularly uh picked up were the number of people who actually feel fully supported in the workplace when it comes to mental health. So that figure's only around 30%. And 22% of people say there's no communications about mental health at all. So what we're seeing across the industry is some very, very good work and some great best practice. I think what Tanya's talked about, Sinead, John, but it's it's very inconsistent, as we see in some places, no conversation at all. And I think the the big issue when it comes to leadership is really setting the tone and culture. And the one point I really wanted to pick up, Scott, is about stigma. And I think the thing that I've seen the most across my experience, and this is great to hear what Tanya's got to say, is when people feel the permission and safe to have a conversation about mental health, that's where you begin to see improvements. Unfortunately, we've still got a situation where some people uh believe it could be even a risk to their career to have a conversation. Until leadership in organizations across the board challenges that stigma, I think we're gonna continue to have a serious issue when it comes to mental health.

SPEAKER_01 15:12

And and to jump in there, like it's not even a few people, it's 32% of people worry that if they raise mental health at work, it's gonna impact their career. That's you know, a third, one in three people. That's a lot of people to, you know, be living with that level of stigma. Um, so I do think that's an important point, Lester. Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 15:30

And Sinead, I want to bring you again again in on this because I know we were talking about the stigma, but also, you know, that um where where are you seeing we because these are all the ingredients for burnout and anxiety, long hours, always on expectation, top answer, second best one, high workload, constant pressure. It's actually not like a career recognition reward or career growth. It's not money that's the thing that's stressing people out. It's it's it's it's this kind of constant expectation. How are you seeing burnout begin to show up in the in the office?

SPEAKER_01 16:03

Yeah, well, um, luckily not so much in our office, but I've been doing a lot of interviewing recently for for new recruits, new roles. And I'm speaking to people in the industry that you're in agencies that are saying that they're working on 10 to 12 clients. Like, even if that's a really small retainer and a really small client, like you know, jumping from one to number 10 clients, I just don't think is achievable. And I think a lot of agencies are set up in a way that is just burnouts bound to happen with that, you know, amount of balls to be juggling. So I think that's one thing. I think um certainly recently client demands are changing, right? Like we as a PR agency overnight shifted from we've got the strategy for 2026, we're activating the plan, these are the pillars, these are the messages, these are the activations to oh god, everything's changed. Do we pause? Do we continue? You know, what's the sort of crisis, get dust off the crisis playbook, etc. And so I think shifting client demands demands, demands always, but um, especially at the moment as things are are changing all the time. Um, and then I guess the other the other way it shows up for some agencies in is people not feeling like they've got a voice or not feeling heard. I think um encouraging, and we can get on to talk about things we can put in place later, but I think you know, people feeling like they have a role and that they have a vision that they are working towards as part of an agency, but that they have an individual part to play in their success.

SPEAKER_03 17:40

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 17:40

I think people become complacent when they when they don't have that. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 17:44

And I was sorry, everyone just jump on this point as well. And when I say people have a voice, it's also important to give that voice not just to the senior leadership. I think it's very important uh for younger professionals to also feel like they are supported as well. Um and generally, yes, sometimes, you know, uh fresh graduates, specifically young professionals, maybe don't have the full picture. But I feel like the importance of conversations and uh transparent conversation, you know, giving context just to show that opinion does matter. And um, you know, you don't need to be in a certain title, certain position. And that's another thing that I really enjoy with the youth board is um, yes, naturally, yes, the people who join the youth board have to be recognized. So they are outstanding talent. But at the same time, I also see a lot of with every recognition of every initiative. Um even like last year we had a webinar about that, and I saw who are the leaders who are there supporting their younger professionals presenting. And these kind of things I think go a long way. Uh, when you show your team, when you show your younger professional, the younger team members that you have a say, you have an opinion, uh, we we can discuss it. I think that also goes a long way just to belong with actually the same.

SPEAKER_02 19:01

I just want I just wanted to pick up on uh Tanya's uh point about everyone having a voice. And I think it just comes back to what you said about um leadership earlier, Scott, that the best organizations, when they look at mental health and they look at well-being, they make it a core part of business strategy. They don't treat it as a sort of a separate add-on, as a as an initiative. And I think when you bring the two things together, you start to then look at the challenges, what's needed, and how does that actually make you a more productive, better engaged, better place to work. So I think it's incumbent on leaders to bring those two things together, not treat it as a just a separate initiative.

SPEAKER_04 19:42

John, can I bring you in on that as well? You know, because again, that this, you know, the the the idea of creating psychological safe workplaces and the the leaders should be able to take a step back and listen to what their teams are saying, and particularly, you know, well, not particularly, but um the younger members of the team uh needing to be able to actually come forward. How do you create that culture? What are the steps that you know PC PRCA, um, you know, via the mental health committee, what have you been trying to encourage or say to the industry to try and tackle that?

SPEAKER_03 20:18

Yeah, well, it's not easy, and the statistics back that up further. And I'll just touch on some of the findings from the last survey. So the report shows that when people do speak to someone at work, they are most likely to speak to a co-worker at 49%, compared with an immediate supervisor or manager at 21%, and even HR at 19%. So it sort of shows you where people feel psychological safety at the various levels. And whilst peer support at 49% sounds like a strength until you actually ask what that means in practice, and it means that you know we're offloading to our colleagues, yeah, and we don't feel that we can often go to the next layer of management or even take that to HR because as uh Lester touched on, that it becomes a stigma issue, or will that impact my next promotion, or how will I be perceived within the business? So these are really fundamental challenges. Um, but what we do know is that we need to open up the dialogue, we need to continue to do what we're doing today, but we also need to touch on, and I know Sinead will go into this in a little bit more detail shortly, is that the mental health charter for the region was launched last year. And that's really encouraging the industry to step up, sign up to those principles, and take those next steps and those initiatives, which help address some of these issues that we're finding in the survey report.

SPEAKER_04 21:43

Well, Sinead, I think um John's done my job really, really well. And I either teed you up or just throwing you under the bus. But no, I mean, look, we we we came together, PRCA, Mental, the Marketing Society, and MEPRA to launch the charter. Um, tell us a little bit more about that.

SPEAKER_01 22:00

Yeah, so the the charter was laun launched uh last year at the Marketing Society conference. Um it's uh a framework which uh is very simple and easy to digest. Um we took it and thought, great, we'll sign this, we're committed to this, we're probably doing all of it already, how hard can it be? And actually, I think one of the learnings was that some of the stuff we have in place, and we had won the um mental PR agency of the year at the at the awards, Scott, the year before you'll remember. Um so we thought, you know, we we we already are doing great work in this space. We'll, you know, we'll sign it, of course, and we'll start implementing. And actually, once you get into it, you realise that some things are uh uh easier than others. So there's four parts to it. Um and for example, the first part is around communicating clear boundaries. And we said, do we think we do that? I think people know that there's flexibility when they need it. I think you know, clients know that we have boundaries in place. And um, but actually, when we really looked into it, we thought, I think we need to improve here. And so, you know, it's not a tick box exercise. You don't say, yes, tick, yes, tick. It's actually a good framework for leadership to sit with it and say, how could we be better in this space? We do some of this for sure, but but we don't do all of it. Um, and I guess just to finish the point, um, one of the areas, for example, is on training. And, you know, I think training is great. I think um everybody should have mental health um training. Um, but it doesn't just stop at the training, right? You need to think about okay, we've done the training and then how do we see that through the business and how do we continue to evolve what we've learned in the training to make sure it to make sure it's relevant. So, yes, um, if you on the call haven't signed up to the charter, please do, or please just have a look at it because yeah, I think there's something in there for everyone in terms of learning.

SPEAKER_04 23:50

Uh, in terms of that, where's the best resource uh for them to go to? Where where where can they find the charter? I know I've got an article about it on my website, mental.space, but where else can they find the charter and sign up?

SPEAKER_01 24:02

Good question. I think we'll put it in the show notes, Scott.

SPEAKER_04 24:06

Well, if you weren't thrown under the bus already, you'd just have to help you out for this.

SPEAKER_03 24:12

It's uh it's on the marketing society. So you can go to the marketing society website and you can certainly find the link there. But uh, I'm sure uh you would put that in our show notes as well.

SPEAKER_04 24:22

Yeah, we'll absolutely put that in the show notes, and we will put some uh resources in the show notes as well for for you, the community dialing in. Uh and again, the community uh audience to you, please ask some questions or tell us of your experience because we want this to be a real chat. Um just by the QA box, your name won't appear. I'll just see the question, I'll read it out. So you can actually talk honestly about the challenges you're facing, and I'll ask the you know the panel um their thoughts. Um, Lester, again, okay. Do you know we've got this old sort of management thing which is sort of stop, start, continue. Um, in this space right now, when you read those figures in that mental health report, what should leaders stop doing immediately?

SPEAKER_02 25:06

Well, I think the the the first thing they need to uh stop doing is the continuous uh multiple requests that sometimes come into teams uh with no filter. I think that's that's a very common thing that can happen. Uh the this the second thing I think is the way leaders absorb pressure. I think all of us have pressure in our jobs, in our lives, um, with with clients in whatever environment we're working in. And I think it's incumbent on leaders in those moments to not just pass the pressure down to their teams. And in terms of what people can start today, there's a lot of really good things in the in the charter. It actually only takes a small step to start improving mental well-being in your organization, and that just starts with a conversation, looking out for people, empathy, and good people-centered leadership. And I think the thing I'd like to see leaders do more is to open up the conversation. And one of the things that I had the opportunity to do in one of my roles was to bring lived experience into the office to have a conversation, to talk about. We had a uh a person who came in, uh it was a vulnerable conversation. They talked about their experience of uh of burnout. But the really positive thing was the support that they got from their organization to help their recovery, and it was an inspiring story. And through that, other colleagues around the room began to open up as well. And I think those are the kind of things leaders can do. And just one final point, um, Scott, because uh Chine brought it up. Sometimes it's small things, other times there's uh the need to look at training. And one of the things that um is going to be happening shortly, and this is uh really positive news, is a mental first aid course is going to be offered across the marketing society, MEPRA and PRCA, which will be largely subsidized. So, I mean that's that's very good news, and uh we hope to be offering that soon.

SPEAKER_04 27:04

I mean, that's an excellent tool, um, and it's excellent people to get that sort of education. Um, Shine, I'm just gonna tag you in, and we do have a question coming in, but I'm gonna just ask you this quick question because it really kind of marries up with what Lester was saying. Um, if I'm sure you I hope you remember, we did a session with your team, um, me and uh Sarah, just uh one of the most powerful parts of that session when we were talking about sort of mental health in the workplace was that was that that exercise we did where we just got people to share what was unique about them and talk about their actual individual stories. And even though you were already a close-knit team, you were still finding things out about each other and they were beginning to sort of bond and feel even safer with each other. So before we actually have the education, this whole idea of the culture and just breaking down the silage, breaking down the barriers, because you know, it was you and Peter talking to your teams and all sharing stuff about each other. I think you were talking about the traffic like system and coming together more often. If we talk about stop, start continue, what's something they should either start or are you going to continue doing that? You know?

SPEAKER_01 28:10

Yeah. Well, yeah. So we did our session with you in um September, Scott. And one of the um tools that we were discussing is traffic lights. So red, bad day, feeling stressed or feeling anxious, or something's happened with a client, or you know, something's happened at home. Um, because of course we're all human beings and we don't leave what's happened at home at the door when we walk into the office. So I think that's an important point. Um, Amber is like, I'm okay, but like this thing wasn't great. And green is like, you know, something's celebratory or something's going really well. And so we've taken that, that exercise that we did in September with you, into our monthly meeting. So at the start of every, at the end of every month, at the start of the meeting, we do open the floor to traffic lights. Um, and anyone can raise their hand and say, red month, this happened, and then we discuss it. And rather than like dissecting all the things that went wrong, we are, you know, we all ask of each other, not just us. We ask, you know, what did we learn from that? How could it have gone better? And what naturally started to happen is that other people chime in and say, well, it was red, but remember how you dealt with that really tricky client email. I was to say you did a good job of that. So that's more of an orange. So it's less us trying to reframe something tricky and more us collectively talking about um, yeah, the good and the bad moments of the month. So, yes, that's been a very positive exercise for us as and we're continuing with it.

SPEAKER_04 29:32

Uh hopefully that's something that someone in the audience can take away and and weave into their uh operations. We do have a question. Um, this is a free-for-all, so whoever wants to answer it, hopefully one of you will. Um and she was apologies if this was mentioned previously. Did the survey break down respondent demographics? I asked because younger Gen Z audiences often seem to have a stronger grasp of personal and work boundaries than previous generations. I would probably say that is true. Sometimes what gets labelled as less proactive feels more like a generation simply sees work differently. That is true. Millennial and boomers were very much brought up with the mindset of working hard as possible to succeed, whereas younger generations seem far more aware of boundaries and protecting their time and energy. Would be interesting to know if the responses shifted by age group. Um, so whoever wants that, and I will want Sinead to uh sorry, uh Tanya to come in on that one as well about that whole idea of uh the younger generations seem more aware of the boundaries and protecting their time and energy.

SPEAKER_03 30:29

I was just gonna say Sinead and I are actually working on the survey at the moment. Um so Sinead, I don't know whether you want to touch on um the process that we currently have underway with you, Gov, but that's um looking at the breakdown yeah.

SPEAKER_01 30:43

So, in answer to the question, the report that just came out, yes, it was heavily skewed towards Gen Z. They had uh all nearly all of the stats were higher. So um do you have did you have mental health challenges this year? I think it was 30% versus 39% of Gen Z. Um, but I think we uh yeah, I mean Tanya can talk about this through the view of the MEPRA Youth Board, but I think for sure, and we look at our agency, and over 60% of our agency are Gen Z, right? And that's that's intentional, largely because we have a lot of clients that want to be targeting the Gen Z audience. And so who better to, you know, ideate and strategize than people that are of that audience themselves? But I think the emotional intelligence um and the boundaries, as you rightly say, of of younger people and just they have the vocabulary and they understand themselves a lot more. And, you know, I'm from the UK and the British media loves to paint them as snowflakes, but I think rather than work against it and sigh if they come in a little bit late, or sigh if they say I'm feeling you know something happened that's toxic, is lean into that, like have the conversation with them, bring them in and be a part of it rather than work against it.

SPEAKER_04 31:58

Tanya. I'm sorry, I gave you a video more.

SPEAKER_00 32:02

I can agree more in terms of communication. I think um generally millennials, and I would even go as far as say the 90s kids specifically, very much our sandwich generation where we're very much raised and we poured technically into um, you know, uh Gen X or like boomers who know for their entire life or educated. Okay, if we're talking older generation, then we never talk about mental health because that's you're crazy if you talk about mental health. And then you go into the uh you know Gen X, where it's a case of, okay, it exists, but you just deal with it and you move on. And we're that generation that's a bit in between that is bridging the gap where you have Gen Z that's very well aware, that knows exactly the want to put you know certain boundaries, maybe they don't necessarily know how, uh, but understand the importance of mental health, talk about it, are confident talking about it. Do not glorify um burnout as much as it's been glorified before that you know, if you're very tired or exhausted, you're not sleeping, that means great, you're very busy, that's mean you're you're doing good. So I think this is where I would say um, in part the youth board, this is one of the things, um, you know, uh groups like the youth board or people like in my level, for example, in the mid-management level, have a role to play because it's a case of bridging that gap between what Gen Z know and want for themselves, but at the same time, how things work, how things always have always worked, how things need to function, and you're that middle ground where you translate both together, you bridge the gap between the two. That is precisely the the the role, for example, of the youth board. And this will only happen through communication. If we keep avoiding certain conversations or no insist that this is how it's done, so it needs to continue doing this, be done this way, or I don't understand why those rules are set and I don't want to abide by them because I don't know, I I have a headache and I don't want to work today, then that's where there would be a clash. This is where I go back to the point of conversation and transparency is important, and that willingness to really understand to bridge that gap is important as well.

SPEAKER_04 34:09

Bridging that gap. I mean, I I work with Signal Healthcare every year on their um international health study, and it's always fascinating the findings in that one as well. But I mean, last year it found that you know, between the in the age group of 18 to 24-year-olds, you know, 89% of them were dealing with chronic stress. Um, and uh, I think it was two-thirds of that same uh brackets were feeling lonely at work. How do we bridge that gap? And uh, is it being taken seriously enough at a leadership level? You know, Sinead, you were talking about rolling the eyes and calling him snowflakes. Um, but yeah, but Lester, John, are leaders actually taking you seriously? Or why should they?

SPEAKER_02 34:50

Yeah, look, firstly, I think it's a very good thing that we're having this conversation uh and that Gen X are bringing this into the workplace now. I think sometimes it can uh be dismissed in using terms like snowflake, etc., which I think is very unfair. I think it's very positive that we're getting away from vocabulary, that it's good to stay up all night, it's a badge of honor. I did all of this, you know, uh beyond, and it it's seen in uh in a way which now I think is more real. In terms of in terms of the actual uh gap with younger people, um, I think they're probably I think the probably the main thing is we have to we have to take this more seriously. I don't think leadership is still doing enough. Um, I think there is a lot more we can do with uh programs, small actions, and continuing the conversation. So a lot more to do.

SPEAKER_04 35:46

John, I'm gonna bring you in on that one as well.

SPEAKER_03 35:47

Yeah, I I can add to that a little bit further. I mean, I've got a little bit of gray in the beer, sadly, now these days. And uh, this is why I think the work that um Tanya's doing with the MEPRA youth board is so critical because there is that divergence between the two. I think we've got something like five different generations in the workforce at the moment. How do you balance that when you're trying to run a business when the expectations are very different at Gen X versus um, you know, the the age that I'm currently at? So look, it's not it's about to stead out of our 50, sadly. But you know, it's um it's not easy, but you know, to the points that's been raised, communication, understanding, uh expectations. You know, do we need to be saying, okay, well, you're now in the office five days a week? We know that the younger generation don't want that. We know, and we were proved during COVID that we can uh work remotely. There's flexibility. So getting that balance right is really critical, but also um, you know, there's a sense of wanting to come together, collaborate. You know, we're talking about connection here, we're talking about mental health. You know, working remotely by yourself in your apartment for days on end, is that going to be good for your mental health? Whereas if you're coming in, you're connecting, you're learning, that that is a good thing, I think. Um, so being able to get that balance right is really nuanced and it's not easy. And this is why you need, you know, to have different perspectives. The work that Tanya's doing. But then of course you've got the older generation probably saying, okay, I want to see a little bit more of you. How can we come in, work together, collaborate, learn from each other, make sure that you're doing well and take the business forward. So I think that balance is um needs to be finely tuned. It's not easy. It's an interesting point.

SPEAKER_00 37:33

It comes down to a wanting to wanting to make that for for someone in John's position to want to understand that because great, I for someone my case, I can't speak about it. But if let's say um, and in both cases, I'm fortunate enough that both at Mapra and at Weber, I have that platform where I am listening to it. I want to bring that bring something up that talks about culture or that mental health topic, I will be listened with with at Mapra with uh Justin. That was one of the first conversations, and the first point was you have the full support to go with it. And it I would have been able to achieve much less if I didn't get that. And that's the same at Weber, where culture is a big thing, where we actually have a committee specifically focused on all those events and getting people together and supporting each other and all those things, which I think go a long way, and it really needs to start by someone in the in the higher position wanting to create that change.

SPEAKER_04 38:29

So I'm gonna ask you a pop quiz in a minute and just think about this. Um, how much money do you think businesses are losing in the GCC every year through disengaged and burnout employees? And you can put your answers in the QA box. Uh, Shineade, Lester, John, Tanya. I want you to think about that. Um, at the same time, John, well, all of you from that agency perspective, what is the message to that leadership? Because there's more than just um a compassionate argument to be made here, isn't there? There is a what's the business case that you see day in and day out within the industry that when people do feel safe and when do people do fee valued, how that actually feeds in to the performance? Because at the end of the day, companies have to succeed and and perform. But um, I will come back to this figure about how much you know disengagement is costing business here in the GCC. But tell us about you know what works and why organizations should be embracing this.

SPEAKER_00 39:32

I think one of the things I usually ask, I probably don't have the exact answer to your question, but whenever I'm you know working with someone, um clients, uh agencies, all things, one of the main things I usually like to ask is the turnover rate. And to me, that's a huge indication. If you have a scary turnover rate and people are not there all the time, especially when it's let's say places that remunerate well, they compensate with a different aspects. And you see people not lasting, in my opinion, that is an indication of something. Could it be culture, could it be uh related to that topic? I could say that there could be a lane, we cannot generalize, but that's one of the things I usually find very interesting. Um, and I would also say that again, in my opinion, in my judgment, in many cases, the cost of replacing a talent that is really good and um really brings a lot to the business. But leaves for X, Y, Z reason or particularly related to culture, replacing that talent can actually cost more for the business between the phase of leaving, the re-educate, teaching someone new, onboarding, all those kind of things. So I would generally, yeah, I like to look at that this from this lens specifically.

SPEAKER_04 40:45

I wanted to just give you another little statistic because I I love the the Signa Healthcare study that we worked together on. And there was a there was a statistic in there as well, which was that 80% of people that responded to that survey were willing to work hard to help their companies succeed. So we don't actually have, I think, and that's actually world leading. I think like the global average was around 50%, 53%, I think if I could, if I can remember rightly. So from a from a leader's perspective, you actually don't have a productivity problem. It's more of a, you know, it is a cultural, cultural problem. Sinead, I can see you itching to say something.

SPEAKER_01 41:21

I do always um I do wonder if we overcomplicate this sometimes, right? Like mental health is incredibly serious, and obviously burnout and exhaustion and stress and anxiety are really um problematic issues in the workplace and in society for sure. But I think sometimes in the workplace, bad management, and it nearly what you know, when you speak to somebody about bad experiences that they've had at work, it nearly is always because of a bad experience with a boss or a manager. I'm sure everyone on this call, and certainly us um panelists would be able to vouch for that. So I think sometimes we, yeah, we overcomplicate it. Like leaders really do need to show up that they, you know, we need to create cultures of openness at work. We need honesty, we need transparency. And I think not pretending that you have all of the answers all of the time, right? You know, not we're all humans at the end of the day. And I think making sure that there's room and space for conversations that matter really is shouldn't be that difficult.

SPEAKER_04 42:23

Why is it that difficult then, Lester? I mean, from that leadership perspective, I know we're still transitioning, you know, and as we say, we've got five generations, and each generation has a different perspective. But 80%, that's four out of five people willing to work hard, you know, and particularly when you know I spent some time in the you know, uh in the marketing profession with um what was Helen Knowlton back in the day. Um, but uh uh you know, people want to work, but it's the your industry is actually really sort of ambitious and it's full of people with creativity and energy and passion. Why are we burning people out? Why are we well what what's driving leaders to do this?

SPEAKER_02 43:00

Yeah, you've come to the the real sort of uh nub of the argument. So look, why do people get into the profession we're in? It's you know, it's exciting, uh, high stakes, very energetic. Um, you know, all of us came into this profession for those kind of reasons. I think the issue has been, in my view, that not enough has been done to put cardrails around where you move from uh working hard, which you know everyone does in the profession, to stress, which we all experience to burnout. And uh and unfortunately, I think um not enough has been done to look at how you can take preventive action to stop that transition into something that then leads to less productivity, losing talent, and uh you know, people leaving the profession. And I think as Sinead said, some of this is actually quite simple in some ways. You know, it starts with attitude, role modeling, deciding the type of Agency or in-house organization that you want and how you want your team to operate. So I think it really is incumbent to leaders. And I'd encourage everyone to read the charter, get involved. I think there's uh a movement of change that Scott, you've done so much to lead on here. And I think collectively we can make the difference.

SPEAKER_04 44:18

Another mic drop moment there. But but John, I wanted to bring you in as well on that kind of like from the leader's perspective and how we actually how we change that. Because I mean, it's all what work out here has always been. I mean, for years, you know, it's an ambitious part of the world. We've got really big projects to work on. There's lots of exciting things happening, as you say, within the profession. Yet at the same time, we we're not slowing down. And then right now, we're back into a period of quite you know uncertainty in this region right now because of what's been happening this year. How important is that, almost as a business fundamental, that we bring compassion and psychological safe workplaces to actually realize that dream? You know, and how do we get there? What's the path?

SPEAKER_03 45:05

Well, it's it's a collective responsibility. I don't think it's just the the leaders standing up in front of everybody and saying, right, there's our North Star, we're heading in that direction. You know, it really needs to be alignment on values, ultimately. And and how how do we, if we're talking about our individual businesses, how do we grow it? How do we ensure that the culture fits everybody's own personal values? And that takes consistent work and effort from everybody. Yes, there is a really fundamental role that the leaders need to have within businesses, within agencies, within departments. But also there needs to be, we've touched on the importance of the different generations. Everybody needs to have responsibility around that. Everybody needs to buy into that because you can feel it when you're in a business, when the engine's motoring, when we're moving. Yeah, you can sense that, but you can also sense it when we're down or a bit beaten up. And then how do you try and change that to ensure that we're shifting gears again, we're continuing to move forward? And that's a judgment that comes with experience, I think, in many ways. Um, you can use tools where you're, you know, you're building relations in relationships internally, you're getting a sense of people's body language and how they're adjusting to the pressures and the strains, having a quiet conversation. How are you doing? Are you okay? Can I help you? Just these little things really go a long way. And I think that then, those little micro moments build up to the bigger picture and help a business go forwards. And that's something that you know that we all learn along the way. But if we have that sort of attitude, um, that we can get that despite the context that we work within. We know that the demands are so significant. We know the last two or three months, we've all responded to it, the situation here differently. But it's also recognizing that there's no right way, and then being able to adjust to that for the individuals as well. And that is culture building. That allows you to then build the context of a framework that can a business can do adjust to the circumstances that it's operating in.

SPEAKER_04 47:07

Got a few questions coming in from the audience as well. So I'm going to turn to those in a moment, but I did ask you a question, and I asked you to think about it. So, how much do you think businesses are losing in the GCC due to um disengagement and burnout? Pick a figure, take a guess. One million billions?

SPEAKER_02 47:27

Five hundred million dollars.

SPEAKER_04 47:28

Five hundred million dollars. Tanya? Any higher than five hundred million? You're on mute.

SPEAKER_00 47:38

I would say somewhere in between. I would say somewhere in between.

SPEAKER_03 47:42

Yeah, I mean I'm in the billions as well.

SPEAKER_04 47:45

Well, you're right. Okay, so it's a trade it's a it's a race between you and Sinead then. We're in the billions. Where do you think in the billions? 7 billion?

SPEAKER_01 47:53

Yeah. John?

SPEAKER_04 47:54

Okay, I was gonna go with the two or three. Two or three billion. Two hundred billion. Oh, wow.

SPEAKER_03 48:00

Okay.

SPEAKER_04 48:01

Wow. That and if if that doesn't wake up leaders, uh, I don't know what will. And do you want anyone good at maths? Do you want to know what that is in an almost to business in the region? Yeah, I won't make you do that one. Yeah, it's not a countdown. Uh it's 114 million dollars per hour. Um, and actually, like the and the cost has gone up year on year. Um the UE last year it was uh basically 43 billion. It was costing us a year and this year and then 2026, or it's the 2025 year that's captured in this report. Um, it's nearly 50 billion dollars, and and it's the same position across um the region, right? Audience questions. Let's let's put a few of the thoughts of the audience to you as well. Uh so one question here: what can global companies in the Middle East do to lead by example? Why do you see multinational corporations struggling with the mental health of their workforce when it contradicts their revenue and profitability mindset? And it is an interesting one because we do have global organizations here, um, and you know, they have these global values, but it still sometimes seems that that doesn't trickle down into the region as much as it should.

SPEAKER_01 49:15

Yeah, I think well, there's two things. One, there's a lot of um performative well-being, I would say. Like in my experience, I've seen lots of companies, regional and global, you know, they'll have webinars on mental health and free fruit in the office, but the reality is they can have quite toxic work cultures. And so I think there's that challenge. And coming back to what we were saying about Gen Z, they are the first ones to spot out performative uh well-being. So I think it's being aware of that. But I I actually don't think there's a big difference between global companies and local companies when it comes to this. I think it's more, I think it's industry-based, I think it's I think it's the type of work that you do, I think it's leadership. You know, I've seen global and local companies um with amazing leaders that, you know, uh promote a very positive um mental well-being uh culture, uh, and you know, vice versa. So personally, I don't know if there is a huge difference between global and regional or local.

SPEAKER_04 50:16

Kenya, is that true that you think that because there was a there was a brilliant Oxford University study as well that showed that, you know, um well washing or companies that said one thing and did another actually cause more resentment and more disengagement and more burnout than if they didn't do anything. You know, if they didn't try and pretend they then that actually it caused more resentment and therefore they lost people quicker. Your generation, do you think, as Sinead says, you know, um, do they sniff that out quicker? And are they also more willing to to move around? And actually, organizations are gonna lose talent if they don't actually do this authentically?

SPEAKER_00 50:52

Yeah. I think there are multiple layers to that question. Um a lot of it depends, and I think the tricky part is how different things are. From uh from looking at it from an agency perspective and from someone who works with both local and uh global agencies, I think a big part I do spot a bit of a difference, but I also say a big part of how um things are is a lot of those companies, especially when they work externally, are reactive. So when let's say you have a company like Weber where there is um clear boundaries or clear uh expectations on your certain ways of working and everything, then the third party reacts to that, regardless of whether they're local or global. Um, and that's something that you know when you're setting kind of that those those guidelines from the beginning. In terms of people, and I would say that I think your people are um either your your at your biggest assets basically, or your biggest basically expense or um cost. Because if you're you will know really how a culture is, you can do all the content, you can all do all the PR around it, but particularly in times of difficulties, in times of crisis, and when when really the situation is serious, it's really your people who will make or break and really define who you are. So I think yes, company really need to really know not what um leadership alone is saying, it's what the talent, the younger talent included, is saying about them because this is one of the most reliable sources. Of course, it's not, you know, one some one person had a bad day and then they go and like say random things. Of course, that's not what I'm talking about, but I'm talking when it's a collective, um, you know, repetitive feedback that is constantly said, then that's when it starts raising a question and that's where it starts impacting the reputation.

SPEAKER_04 52:44

Um, we've got five minutes left. So I do want to put up a couple more of the audience questions. I can't believe we've only got five minutes left, but um what one of the audience members, and I'm not reading out names just deliberately, um, you can send me a message if you do want me to share your name, but uh um they saying that they left their job due to the management compromising my values and morals. Um she had an experience where it was basically down to biases and not because of performance metrics. And there were other things as well that led that individual to quit. Um, that person, that audience member, thank you for your question. I would like to ask now, how does I have the courage to bring this up and not risk being on bad terms with management and risking my job in the future? I think that's a really important thing. How do we create that space um so that people can speak up? Um, Sinead, I'll come to you for that. But I think this is a really good place for us to bring it around. Like again, that stop, start, continue. What are the things that we can do in the even like you know, if a team is wanting to do something next week, what should they start? Where should they first start? And we'll go around the room, but we'll start with you, Sinead.

SPEAKER_01 53:53

If a team should start doing something next week, yeah, what's the first thing they should be doing? Oh, I see. I think um from a leadership point of view, it's about um openness and honesty and transparency. I think that's the key thing. People feel like they can talk to you when you talk to them. It's pretty simple for me.

SPEAKER_04 54:11

Greg. Uh Lester.

SPEAKER_02 54:15

I think the the key for me is probably leading with empathy and kindness. Uh, I think that goes a long way to creating the culture where people feel uh that they're able to speak up and not be punished for it.

SPEAKER_00 54:31

Daniel As leading by example, it's um it's you know, in this in the tough situations when things go wrong specifically, it's of course all great to be supportive and happy and bubbly when things are going well. But I think it's when things go wrong um that you know create a platform where people are are not terrified to say that they did something wrong or to suggest something. Instead, they are actually educated about it or listened to, and there's a solution put in place. Yes, there are consequences, but at the same time, it's a place where you're showing that we're working towards it together as opposed to you're on your own when something goes strong.

SPEAKER_04 55:09

John, I feel I should give the mic drop moment to you. No pressure.

SPEAKER_03 55:14

Okay, I'll wrap up. Well, look, I think um I think be brave, be brave. You know, it's um it requires a little bit of that authenticity and and braveness around approach. And you know, the the question was around values, and you you know may have um worked against that individual's the environment may have worked against their values. And if you're in if you're working within a uh within an agency or you're within a department and something is rubbing against the grain, then I think you've got to be brave. You know, you've got to have that conversation and then take that step. So is that somebody that you trust within the team? Is it the manager? Is it you know, quietly having a chat to somebody in HR? That's a decision and a judgment that you need to make. But I think ultimately if if you're not making that step, that's when it starts to to grind against you because it's working against your own values, and that's when it becomes a problem. So be brave, have a conversation and take it forward.

SPEAKER_04 56:12

I love that. That is a mic drop moment. I am going to ask you one more question because Mazin kindly um and he and I yeah, I know he won't mind mentioning him. He asked a couple of questions, which was obviously uh total layoffs in the global tech sector could be 340,000 by the end of the year. Um, but he's interestingly, he's asking how to guard the mental health of the workforce when reality is painful. And I think that is a really good place to finish. Because right now there is uncertainty. So how do we look after our people?

SPEAKER_03 56:42

Uh I would just quickly step in and then I'm sure the team will have some thoughts. Look, I I think that's um that's honest conversations. You know, if we're talking about uh an agency-client relationship, you know, those conversations need to be had. How do we make sure that there's not um you know, uh skirt crit, for example, um, that we need to change the model around resourcing, um, realistic, um, sort of kind expectations. You know, the the clients often said that set the pace here. If a client asks for a for a document to be prepared at 10 o'clock at night and they need it by midnight, we will probably respond. So it's a two-way collaboration here, um, but also being mindful of uh people's commitments, um, having honest conversations, being able to pick your moments when you can push back and be realistic about managing those expectations, I think helps.

SPEAKER_04 57:32

That's brilliant. And I am going to be mindful of people's commitments because we have crossed the hour part. So I am actually gonna have to say um it's time to for me to stop talking for once. Um, thank you very much for joining us. Everybody who's joined us in the audience, thanks for for joining us. This conversation will be live soon as a podcast and on YouTube. Uh, and of course, to my guests, John, Tanya, Lester, and Sinead. Thanks very much for all the work you're doing. Um, and again, audience, check out the charter, you know, combination of the Marketing Society, MEPRA, PRCA Mental Health Committee, and obviously a bit of a contribution from mental. Um, but yeah, uh, look after yourselves and thank you for tuning in today. Thank you so much, Scott.

SPEAKER_03 58:15

Thank you. Take care, everybody. Cheers. Bye bye.