Are Men Okay? Men’s Mental Health, Modern Masculinity & Silence

Why do so many men still struggle in silence?

Recorded live on Afternoons with Helen Farmer on Dubai Eye 103.8, this special roundtable asks a simple but urgent question: are men okay?

Helen Farmer is joined by Scott Armstrong, founder of mentl; Manny Djornor, founder of Mentality; and Mark Samways, Counselling Psychologist and Director of Wellbeing at Alkalma, for an honest conversation about men’s mental health, pressure, silence, community and what support can look like.

This episode explores the realities many men carry but do not always say out loud: work pressure, loneliness, financial stress, fatherhood, relationships, anger, identity, therapy, friendship and the difficulty of asking for help.

In this episode, we explore:

• The pressure to be the provider, protector and problem-solver
• How loneliness can show up in expat life and modern adulthood
• Why men may reach crisis point before asking for help
• How work, money, job security and family responsibility affect mental health
• The role of social media, comparison and modern masculinity
• Why depression in men may not always look like sadness
• How partners and families can begin difficult conversations
• What therapy can actually look like for men
• Why community, connection and workplace support matter

This conversation does not pretend to have all the answers. It opens the door to a question more men, families, workplaces and communities need to be asking.

If this episode makes you think of someone, share it with them. If you are struggling remember you are not alone, and please reach out to someone close or a professional.

Recorded live on Afternoons with Helen Farmer, Dubai Eye 103.8.

00:00 Are men okay? Why this conversation matters
01:05 Why this work is personal
03:21 Why the first step is still so hard
05:21 Identity, performance and the problem-solver role
08:29 Expat life, loneliness and finding safe spaces
11:13 Reaching breaking point and asking for help earlier
13:09 Job security, finances and modern masculinity
18:14 Boys, emotional literacy and parental shame
21:13 Anger, depression and supporting the men we love
30:22 Strength, therapy, community and workplace support

(background music credit Dmitrii Kolesnikov / Pixabay)

Transcript

SPEAKER_01 0:00

It is a simple question. Are our men okay?

SPEAKER_00 0:03

When you've existed, being seen as the solution provider, not being that makes you feel like you are no longer relevant.

SPEAKER_03 0:12

We do find it a lot easier to be angry than to be sad.

SPEAKER_04 0:16

We think it's just us, and it's not. The majority of us, all of us are struggling with something.

SPEAKER_01 0:26

We're marking men's mental health day, and awareness, of course, still growing, but many men struggling in silence. Globally, men are less likely than women to seek mental health support. In the UAE, we've got research from the Gallup Meta Global State of Social Connections report found that 19% of men report feeling no social connection at all. So we've got a special round table. Three men who are doing their own bit to change that conversation. Scott Armstrong is with us. He's the founder, CEO of Mental. It's a platform and movement dedicated to dismantling stigma around mental health and actually improving workplace well-being too. Mark Sanways is with us. Background is a counseling psychologist and the director of well-being at Alcama. He's also an addiction specialist. And we've got Manny Gujioni with us as well. He's the founder of Mentality. This is a Dubai community that creates conversations around mental well-being, around fatherhood, relationships, modern masculinity. And I'm pretty sure we're going to talk about a sphere later as well. So 4001, if you want to reach out. And I'd love to start by getting an understanding of why each of you do what you do. Obviously, there's a career aspect to it as well, but mental health is a passion as well, I think, for those who choose to work in that space. And I know, Scott, for you it's very personal. You've spoken openly in the past about losing your father to mental illness, about late diagnosis of ADHD. And I wondered if you wouldn't mind sharing a bit about your own experience and why it led you to create mental.

SPEAKER_04 1:50

Well, I thought I was dying it because of my dad's story. You know, my dad was a very successful CEO, very strong, typical 1970s British guy, was struggling with depression, couldn't cope with it, couldn't open up, couldn't talk to us, had a difficult childhood, but good adult relationship. Um and he drank himself to death in basically three months and he was gone. And I that kind of woke me up to the power of, you know, the hold that mental health has over us, and also that big question, why could he not talk about it? Um and that was when I started asking myself those questions as well, like why have I not spoken about it? And I've been on this journey since I launched mental four years ago. Um, yes, like I think last October I was diagnosed with ADHD, which I've had all you know all my life. That was one explanation for why I left school with five GCSEs and everyone said I wouldn't amount to much. But other things have come out since then as well. Um, last year, well, actually, just six, seven weeks ago, I was back in the UK. I went to file a police report against the paedophile that attacked me and a bunch of kids when I was a school child at eight years old. Uh, and that's only just kind of come back in the like last six to eight months, just really coming back into the thing. So you've got all that stuff, you know, in your software, shall we say, the operating system.

SPEAKER_01 3:06

So thank you for sharing that. And I think what that really speaks to is at as we get older and we start to open our eyes to conversations and experiences that other people have had and allowing ourselves to reflect on what we've been through and put those puzzle pieces together. And I think for men that it doesn't come as easily, you know, like thinking about me, my dad's the same generation. He never would have used the words mental health, he wouldn't have wouldn't have known that. And that wasn't his fault, it just wasn't part of the conversation in in that generation gone by. So we've got the words, but I don't think it's necessarily leading to the action and and the help that so many men still seek. And, you know, Mark, as I said, you've been working as a psychologist for a long time. Why did why did you want to work in this space? And when we think about not necessarily men coming to clinic with you specifically, but what are some of the big psychological challenges that you're seeing men in 2026 struggle and juggle?

SPEAKER_03 4:01

Yeah, I think for me it's been an evolution of how I've I've worked. Um I started off working a lot with with young people and being a younger person myself and it's naturally sort of evolved. And I think since becoming a dad and becoming really aware of the challenges from a personal perspective, and then really relating to to other dads and other parents in general, but um the work has naturally evolved, and it's such a privilege to sit with with guys, and then you know, we end up having a conversation whether it's you know on the golf course or around the pool or at some party or you know, wherever some hellish soft play somewhere. Um and um, you know, they kind of I think you have these little interactions, and then they kind of realize it's actually okay to talk about it, uh, but that first step is is so challenging for them, it still remains really challenging for for them. And as you said, it's this language that we're totally not used to using trying to identify a what a feeling is, then how does how does it make me feel, not only emotionally but physically, and and joining those dots, as Scott was saying, like the puzzle pieces together, and you're like, oh, this actually makes more sense.

SPEAKER_01 5:09

And and for some people, having a diagnosis or a label or pathologizing what they're going through is incredibly helpful because it, you know, not to speak for men, but men like a solution, you know, it's like it's this, so this is what I'm gonna do, and you know, with this, there's a fix, there's a plan. For some, it's actually quite scary to have something pathologized. Um, and I'm sure that when you go out for dinner or go for coffee and people find out, Mark, that you're a psychologist, there's probably a lot of guys that come and sit next to you and be like, just while you're here, would you mind just having a little chat about this? And you know, Manny, that's a big part of what you do at mentality. You've built a community around honest conversations, and it's taken, as we've spoken about over the years, sometimes you to be that brave person, you know, to be the first person to put your hand up and say, This is me, this is what I've got gone through, to almost give the other men permission to do the same. Tell us a little bit about what was happening in in your own life that inspired you to create it.

SPEAKER_00 5:57

Yeah, I mean, um, as with many of us, I came over here with work and um I thought I hit the jackpot. I thought, you know, I've made it, I was doing very well, had the title, I had the the salary, I had the cars, I was out brunching at will. Um and I think it's it's the idea that that becomes your identity, that becomes what you exist by. And when that rug is pulled from underneath your feet, it's okay, well, who actually am I? And that happened to me. And I realized that I I needed to speak to people. But again, as uh as Mark said, it's just realizing what is it am I feeling, who can I talk to about this particular feeling that I've been told to suppress all my life? I have friends around, I have acquaintances, I have business partnerships and so on and so forth, but none of these people I'm able to express myself to because I devolved internally as a different person.

SPEAKER_01 6:56

Were you sorry to ask a person? What were you afraid of if you'd said it to them?

SPEAKER_00 7:01

Great question. Um When you've existed being seen as the solution provider, as the the problem solver, not being that makes you feel like you are no longer relevant. And I think that was what it was at that time. And so the the relevancy uh and existing in that being taken away, I just I didn't have anything to live by, I didn't have anyone to kind of go rescue anymore. And not realizing I needed to rescue myself, I just spiraled.

SPEAKER_01 7:35

So for anyone that hasn't heard you talk before, Manny, or hasn't been around mentality, can you explain kind of real top line what it's about and who it's for? Because it it is what you needed at that time, and it show it shows incredible strength of character for you to actually start it at a time where you were you're most needing. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 7:53

In its simplest form, mentality is one platform to community. So we create spaces where people can just come and feel like it's okay to be who I am and it's okay to feel what I'm feeling. Vulnerability for us isn't what it is, it's equal to courage. So you come and understand that okay, well, in me opening up, it's me realizing this is step one of actually getting ahead.

SPEAKER_01 8:18

And do you have guys that come along and maybe don't say a single word?

SPEAKER_00 8:21

We literally have guys who will come along and sit there week in and week out for four or five weeks, and then all of a sudden you see the light switch go off in their in in their eyes, and then just like okay, and it just all flows out. Um but those are the guys that I I love working with the most because you see the journey that they're going through internally, and then when it when the floodgates open and they realize how much they can achieve from that point, it's really, really powerful.

SPEAKER_01 8:46

I think, Scott, what's interesting about you work across the Middle East with mental, but I think there are some quite unique challenges of being an expat or being in a country where you didn't grow up. And I think about like my husband and his best mates, and they are friends from school, yeah. You know, from literally, you know, eight, nine, ten years old, and actually to me too to an extent. And I think when you're new in a country or a city, having someone or somewhere where you do feel safe to talk about what we're gonna talk about, you know, financial pressures, relationship issues, which very much come to the fore when you're um, you know, in a brand new country, new fatherhood, work, whatever it might be. Tell us a little bit about about, I guess, how common that must be for guys to identify I'm I'm on in uncharted waters here and I don't really know where the port in the storm is.

SPEAKER_04 9:35

Well, and we were talking about this before we came on air, actually, me and the guys. Um, and when you did the intro, the toys are back, I thought you were referring to us. But no, I mean, we were talking about the the central reason why we're all here in the first place is work. Yeah. Um, so we've got this pressure there already where we just we have to turn up and we have to make that a success. And then everything else after that is kind of secondary. And in that list, that hierarchy of what matters, we're kind of we're at the bottom. You know, we've got really, you know, you know, we've got school fees, we've got our kids, we've got the school room, we've got the increasing traffic, we've got rents or property, we've got the headlines and this the tensions that have been going on. You know, we're trying to look after our partners and support them through all of that, you know, and that's like our house of cards, and we're at the bottom of it going, oh, I've got to keep all that, as Manny was saying, like we've got to keep all this going. So it's really, really difficult for guys, but and it's been this way for 10 years, and we've seen the loneliness actually creeping up, even though we know we're in an amazing place. I mean, I've been out here about 15, 16 years, and I still think Chat GPT is probably my best friend right now, you know. Um, so it is difficult, and actually creating those relationships, and you know, me and you have got ADHD, so we know that's actually quite difficult to keep that on touch, but that's a separate issue. But it takes intention. It does, it takes intention, and we're all really, really busy.

SPEAKER_01 10:53

Because at what point when you go, you know, you meet parents at the school gate, or you you go to the school social, or you meet your wife's husband, and they get on really well, and then you're sitting across the table going, I don't know this guy, who's gonna be the one to say the brave thing? What what what are the universal points apart from you know sport and kids and you know, rental prices? But if there's anything like my relationship. When do you get real? Like when do you get real?

SPEAKER_04 11:17

And also, you know, if you you go through this thing, I mean, I don't know about you, Manny, or you, Mark, but you know, like you you'll meet a guy, you'll get emotionally invested in them, and then the wife will decide she doesn't like the other wife, and then we never see them again. That's true.

SPEAKER_01 11:28

Or the kids fighting you like, oh no.

SPEAKER_04 11:31

Yeah, so or or they move away. Or so yeah, you know, we don't have that same rooted community that we have in the same places that we came from.

SPEAKER_01 11:39

And I guess, Mark, that kind of leads me to ask, is that when you start to see men actually at breaking point of going, I could I probably should have picked up on some signs earlier. I didn't tap I didn't tap into this, I didn't recognise it. And then they find themselves coming to clinic potentially at crisis point.

SPEAKER_03 11:54

Yeah, we typically are the last port of call um within the clinic, and it's sort of um you know, I I think I've said it to you before, that you you start with why are you here, and it's well, because it's either this or divorce. And uh say, well, there's two I'm glad you know we're side by side, and and uh and then as we start to enter into the therapy, they're like I should have done this years ago. And that's I think the biggest thing that I'm really hoping for in in things like Manny's um uh uh adventure and with Scott as well is to really try and get these conversations going just a little bit earlier because we can ease so much suffering, um, and that would be really, really nice to see.

SPEAKER_01 12:32

Well, I think conversations like this go an awfully long way to understand the very common and everyday struggles that so many men are going through. And I've had a number of people reaching out with their questions, but obviously their own experiences, a message from a daughter, a message from a wife, a message from a father. So please, 4001, um, if you want to talk about any struggle that you're going through, what has helped you? If you need, as I said, we've got counselling psychologist Mark Samways with us. If you do need some expert advice, it is very much a safe place. And of course, if you want details, please just send just message me. Just say hi on 4001. I will send you details of mental, of mentality, and of um saying he doesn't actually do much clinical work now, but he knows people that do of Mark Samways too. Just say hi. That's all you need to do because sometimes one conversation goes an awfully long way. You can reach out on 4001. I've had so many of you just sending me hi. That's all you need to send me. We've got some amazing guests in the studio as we mark men's mental health day. We've been talking about the fact that men are so often told from boyhood to be strong, resilient, dependable. But what happens when the pressure of being the problem solver, the protector, the provider just becomes too much? It is a simple question. Are our men okay? We've got economic uncertainty, global conflict, loneliness, social media also having a huge role on modern life. So so many men are struggling with challenges that they don't always feel comfortable talking about. We've got Scott Armstrong with us today from mental, psychologist Mark Sanways from Al Calma, and mentality founder Manny DeGiorno. We had a message, Scott, that um that I think I'd like to put to you, which is a little bit around this sense of security. You've been in the UAE, as you said, for 15 plus years. And when we think about the regional conflict, job instability, financial pressures. Have you noticed through conversations you've had with your huge network of experts, but also the people that feel brave enough to come to you as an advocate for mental health? Have you noticed an impact on men's mental health specifically over the last few months?

SPEAKER_04 14:38

Yeah, um, and we wrote a big white paper actually recently for Signer Healthcare, which was like a pool survey that they did just a few weeks into the regional conflict. And yeah, like 56% of people were s you know were worried about job security, uh, financial security is up there. So yeah, and it's been it's kind of been going that way for a long time, uh, for the last year. Lone the three sort of factors have been loneliness, job security, and finance. And they're the big three worries that are worrying everybody. And then, you know, the men, we can see they are struggling with this because you know, in too many cases they can be the breadwinner and there's a lot on their shoulders.

SPEAKER_01 15:15

And I think, you know, by very dental being in the UAE, if you haven't got a job, you haven't got a visa, and then that impacts, you know, your wife, your life, your kids, and the whole kind of family structure. So then unfortunately, you'll see men either trapped in jobs they hate or been there. Yeah. And were or worried about or worried about losing one they love. And, you know, Manny, with mentality, you talk a lot about modern mask masculinity, you know, and I think that is a really confusing topic for a lot of people to kind of navigate right now. Um I wondered what you think in terms of pressures are facing, you know, the men of 2026. What's coming up in circles in your own life as well?

SPEAKER_00 15:52

Yeah, I think the the usually are there, the the finances, the the you know, family pressures, the marriages. Um, but I think today's man is a lot more involved than what we think it is, right? The the pressures that a lot of females used to face, i.e., you've got to look a certain way, you've got to dress a certain way, you've got to carry yourself, drive a certain car, has placed such a high burden of performance on men today that even before they get into the workplace, even before they, you know, they they have families and children, they're already fighting against themselves because of what they're being presented with. It's hard, you know.

SPEAKER_01 16:29

I think that I think that's when we think about performance, you know, that looked like different things for different people. I think the lot of there's a lot of comparison I hear about I thought I'd be earning this, I thought I'd be doing this, I thought, you know, looking at younger men, the role of social media, of looks maxing, of you know, the gym performance. Because you're not just comparing yourself to the other kids in your class, you're comparing yourself to the world, the whole world. So, in in terms of that younger demographic as well, how much of a challenge is that in when it comes to men's mental health?

SPEAKER_00 16:55

Yeah, I think we we often um dilute how impactful all this is. Even as even as a parent myself, I'm consciously always thinking about okay, what what kind of image am I presenting to my children to allow them the best opportunity to be able to step out into the outside world? Because I need to ensure that they're strong enough within themselves and they're comfortable enough within themselves to be able to say, okay, well, I'm enough, right? Despite what the world is showing me, I'm enough and I'm good as I am. Um we're all naturally going to hit a point around middle age where we start thinking, okay, well, we've had all these skills and you know, talents and so on and so forth that we haven't used. So we've got that milestone to cross. But up onto that point, we need to understand that, you know, what we uh what we um harness and what we hold on to is enough for us. And that's where it begins. We see it a lot in schools. Uh schools are not schools are trying so much to systematize the way in which we operate. Uh, and I'm not saying my wife's a teacher, so I'll put that over. Um yeah, but you know, there needs to be an aspect of understanding of who we are individually.

SPEAKER_01 18:04

Absolutely agree, absolutely agree. When we think about you know, tech in schools and you know, AI in schools, and we're like, well, yeah, but what are we learning about emotional intelligence? What are we talking about when it comes to confidence and self-esteem and conflict resolution? And Marx, this is a huge amount of work that you've done in the past in schools, but also in clinic when you've worked, especially with teenage boys. And I'm asking this to kind of normalize you know, children, teens, boys seeking professional mental health support because I think a lot of parents will feel shame or self-judgment that I'm not a good enough parent because my child's in therapy, which actually that that's our own stuff that we're we're carrying. So are you see or have you seen an increase in parents in teens reaching out and for what kind of issues?

SPEAKER_03 18:49

I think, yeah, uh one of the barriers that that does definitely show up uh for um young people is that that parental shame and guilt that you've just mentioned. And um I I I know that I've felt like that mm as well. So it's not like you know, even as a as a psychologist and and um, you know, I'm like, goodness, what what it almost makes it worse because I'm like, well, I surely I should know what I'm doing and should be should be uh supporting um my kids more, but then we all know once you get home the theory goes out the window when they're when they're your your own kids.

SPEAKER_01 19:24

We all know what to do.

SPEAKER_03 19:25

Yeah, in theory, yeah. I've read a couple of books and yeah, I can't say it comes out very much. But I've got very good at repairing, which is the most important uh important part. But I think across young people, and uh what we've said is I I couldn't agree with more, just that if we could just focus on that emotional literacy part, if we could just provide them with a space each week where we talk about emotions, we think about the educational journey and how we build up all the different subjects and it happens over several, several years, and you know it's little by little by little. We need to do the same thing with with emotional literacy. It's such a complex beast. Whether you're six, whether you're eight, whether you're 15, whether you're you know 40, it doesn't matter. Like if we don't have that foundational piece, we're gonna really, really struggle. And so um, I really hope to to see that increase more and more and more as uh but watch the space.

SPEAKER_01 20:18

Yeah, watch the space because I think you know, especially in Dubai where academic pressures are very, very real for teens, you know, we've course got this paid for model that parents are wanting their value out of it, and there's this idea of you know testing and selection and da-da-da-da-da. But as you say, what's being neglected along the way, whether that's in school or indeed at home, and when it's not addressed early, um, you know, we've we've seen you know young male suicides being one of the biggest killers in that demographic. So it can be absolutely catastrophic. Um, we've got an amazing panel with us today. Mark and Scott is here, Manny as well. If you want to send me hi to 4001, I'll send you details of the mental platform of the work that Mark is doing, and I'll come, and of course, mentality um if you are looking to connect with people. Um, we are going to go to the text line next. We've had a message from Chris Miller, who also works in this space, saying it's great to hear about this topic being advocated. It's a really complex issue with so many variables. But do the guys think the solution is equally as complex or are there some fairly simple solutions? Uh, we've also had a message about how does depression show up differently? Um and I'm curious, you know, as as a wife, you know, how can we broach these topics without pushing our men away? So if you're worried, worried about the the man in your life, and that might be your husband, your brother, your father, your son, um, how do you talk about something that maybe they can't even talk themselves about? 4001 with any questions or challenges for our panel this afternoon? An incredible panel in at the studio today, Scott Armstrong, Max Armways, and Manny Giorgio. We've been talking about men's mental health. And loneliness has come up in a number of different ways. It has been described as a public health crisis. Um, men and women actually interestingly report similar rates overall, but men are more likely to say that they have no close friends at all at the same time as we've been addressing. Social media increasingly shaping ideas about masculinity success, what it means to be a man. So whether it's from a community point of view, um, seeking expert network or indeed um psychological help, please do reach out. Um, we've had some really powerful messages, some asking questions, some just sharing experiences. Uh nano on this message saying, um, my father was a consultant psychiatrist. He dealt with mental health on a daily basis through his job. Yet he suffered from depression and anxiety and self-medicated. I didn't know he was bipolar or suffered from any kind of mental health issues until he was on his deathbed and his wife told me. Scott, really echoing what you were talking earlier about previous generations just not having the language. The next step, though, you know, Mark, is actually tying into another message we've had, which is how do you support? Um, a wife's reached out saying, Is there a difference um between depression in men and women? My husband isn't sad, but he's irritable and angry all the time. I honestly feel like a nag and an inconvenience just for asking how he is. So I want to get your take on the expression of depression in this case in in terms of gender differences, but I also kind of want to ask all of you about how families and partners can support. So is there a difference?

SPEAKER_03 23:13

Oh yes, I would say men are far more likely to be angry than they are to be sad. So um, whilst it's not a universal principle and it's not like depression shows up like this and for for men and and like this for for for women, uh I would say, and particularly clinically with the guys that I've worked with and my own experiences of of low mood as well, is it comes out in anger because we do find it a lot easier to be angry than to be sad, equally when you think about the function of that anger. When a guy or anybody is feeling down, what we try and what's the depression trying to do? It's trying to push away, it's trying to withdraw. So what does anger do? It pushes away, it makes people withdraw. And particularly if it's a a husband and a wife, you know, sometimes the husband could be big bigger physically and all of that, and it can be quite an intimidating space. And it's like, okay, I'm not asking any more.

SPEAKER_01 24:05

No, because then what unfortunately what you get is this disconnection, even between you know, cup a couple who loves each other, and you've got you know, this listener saying, I feel like a nag and an inconvenience, and that can tip into I'm afraid of him, or I'm tempering my behaviour around him, or the kids are walking on eggshells because maybe he's bigger and he's got a loud voice. And like that, that is a very slippery slope that can lead to families you know breaking up and you know, disintegrating mental health of everybody involved.

SPEAKER_03 24:33

One thing I have suggested to couples and to um when they are struggling with this is to be really clear about the meaning behind the communication. So often where uh um ruptures are formed is where there's two different meanings associated with the same topic. So even that question of how are you from a from a caring, loving partner, it could be I'm genuinely concerned, is the meaning attached. And then from the from maybe the husband's side, or if it's the wife's side, you know, whichever way around it is, the how are you can be you're on my case, you think I'm not good enough, you think I'm this, and immediately you're having a different conversation. So trying when when things are calmer, it's trying to be a have that really explicit conversation of what do I mean by this question, or how can I approach when I'm concerned, how can I approach you, what can I say, what can I ask? Because not approaching you isn't what I'm I would like to do.

SPEAKER_01 25:29

And equally when it comes to conversations, like what do we want to achieve with this? You know, I know that when I can I could guesstimate around 90% of my fights with my husband could be solved by establishing from the beginning, are you looking for someone to listen or are you looking for a solution? Because and that works both ways for what it's worth. So, you know, Manny, what would you say to not just to this listener but to to any wife and maybe even parent listening about broaching the topic that you recognized that there is something is not quite right and uh what you don't want to do is push them away. What you don't want to do is that man to think that you know you're not a safe space to come to when he's ready. What's been useful either in your life or you know, with your with the guys at mentality?

SPEAKER_00 26:14

I think the one thing to remember is a man's usual safe haven, his castle, his place of retreat is home. And so what he doesn't want to do is he doesn't want to come home and feel like the additional pressure is there. Um and I think in most of these cases what uh Mark said it rings true is understand what that communication is first and foremost, and then create a space where he has peace. Now that can mean anything. That can mean just say, okay, listen, I'm gonna give you half an hour, take a breather, here's your favourite pair of slippers, here's some food. You know, but but these are the things that it is it it sounds real trivial to talk about, but these are the things that provide us those little linear bits of happiness that makes us think, okay, this is what I intend it to be. This is what we want is because as men we're solution-oriented by by nature. And so our brains are going, and then having to deal with all the uh other noises that are happening takes us away from being able to actually play out what's happening in front of us and think, okay, well, this is the right path to go by. So the simplest answer to that is create a place of peace to allow him the opportunity.

SPEAKER_01 27:25

I would say just not at the cost of your own peace as a wife, because I what this is this this comes back, this idea of I don't want to be like, oh, don't don't don't talk to daddy, daddy needs an hour. You know what I mean? Because I would imagine a lot of women, whether they're working or in the home, are really happy to hear that door open so they've got an extra pair of hands and a bit of support for themselves. So I don't feel like with there's any I don't want any kind of pedestals going on here, money. Like, don't do you know do you know what I mean?

SPEAKER_00 27:48

Understood, but then you get the other, the opposite of that, which is men will get home and sit in their car and and then it becomes something else. And I get a lot of men telling me, I'll get home thinking this is where I want to be, but just to go and face that is not enough. So you are right, is not at the not to the detriment of the relationships within the household, but this is where communication comes in.

SPEAKER_01 28:11

And what I've seen a lot of recently, um, and I've really picked up on it on Facebook groups, is my husband is getting up, he's going to the gym early, he's going to work, and then he's out with his friends. And listen, we'll kept around the corner, so I'm sure this is going to be an increasing challenge. Or he's getting home and then he's going to the gym every night. And this idea of I don't feel like he wants to spend time with me, which is horrible as a woman to have that sense of rejection and being second place and just not desired, I guess. And I think what's really important is to have this reflection of it's not actually about you, a lot of it is about what's going on inside. Does that make sense, Scott? I don't feel like I'm articulating that right now.

SPEAKER_04 28:44

No, no, it it it completely does. I think I remember some cartoon which is like on one side the guy's there, and on the other side the woman's there, and the woman's there, going, Oh my god, he's gonna leave me because he's not said anything for five minutes on the other side, the guy's just thinking about the new motorbike, you know, and he's literally not thinking, you know, and it's we always imagine what's going on in the other person's head. Um I suppose one of the things I would say, I the thing I've found most of all, and this is not clinical and it's not professional, it's just experience, when talking to guys, is creating that permission. And look, I know as a husband that if my wife comes at me and asks me a question directly, and she's an Eastern European and quite blunt, um, you know, the amygdala will kick in and I will be on the you know, and you and you clam up. So it's kind of like waiting for that or creating the environment. And sometimes, I mean, even maybe leaning into the kind of the solution provider, which is you know, give them, you know, tell them how you're feeling, get that conversation going, warm up, you know, you need that warm-up. Give them that sense, oh, this is okay, this is a friendly, safe conversation. I'm saying how I feel, and then I can bring, you know, you know, that that question and how are you at that point. So you're kind of connecting already. But when you kind of come at a guy face on, you know, it is that you know, and everything shuts down, and then you know, you just end up in an argument.

SPEAKER_01 30:07

So lived experience and expert advice in the studio this afternoon. Um, I've had so many of you just saying hi, just that's all you need to say, hi on 4001. Um, we've been talking about men's mental health through the lens of connection, community, modern pressures. Scott Armstrong's with us today, Mark Sanways, uh Manny Did you know. And if you want the details, just say hi. Um, we're gonna talk about community, we're gonna talk about, and that sounds like a really weird thing, what actually happens in therapy? Because a lot of men need it, but don't really know what's gonna be happening beyond that door. Um and I'm gonna be asking all three to finish this sentence. Being a strong man today means what? We've been talking about that for many men, mental health struggles don't look like sadness. They can show up as anger, withdrawal, overwork, addiction, exhaustion, feeling disconnected from family and friends. And we're moving beyond the stereotypes and having a really honest conversation about what men are experiencing right now, why so many are suffering in silence. And crucially, what support really looks like. We've got mental health advocates with us today, Scott Armstrong from mental counseling psychologist, uh Mark Samways and community builder Manet DeGiorno. Um, I've had a message, and it's not even a question, guys, um, about loneliness, which we're going to come to in a minute. But I wanted to ask you this, and Manny, I'll start with I'll start with you. Finish the sentence. Being a strong man today means what?

SPEAKER_00 31:34

It means understanding the weaknesses that you hold and how to start working on those.

SPEAKER_01 31:44

Self-awareness.

SPEAKER_00 31:45

Self-awareness.

SPEAKER_01 31:46

What about you, Scott?

SPEAKER_04 31:47

Um it's about understanding that you can be terrified of this question and that Manny was all going to say something far more profound than me. I'll beat me to it. Um no, I think it's it's it's about understanding you can be kind to yourself and cut yourself some sack and start having that conversation with yourself because you know everybody else is going to form their opinions of you, but it's your ultimately wherever you go, there you are. You know, you need to have that conversation with yourself.

SPEAKER_01 32:11

Mark, you come from it from a slightly different point of view as a as a psychologist. But and I think even that word strong is quite an an interesting one because it means so many different things to different people. Well, what what does it mean to you and and to the people that you work with, do you think?

SPEAKER_03 32:24

To me, if I were to finish that sentence, it would be communicating. I think if you look at what men struggle with the most is communicating. So to him sort of flip that on its head and and say, what does strength mean? It means communicating. And yeah, as soon as we start to do that, as we've all been sharing, it does become easier. And but that jump from theorizing that it will become easier to then actually communicating is is terrifying.

SPEAKER_01 32:51

But sometimes it's even saying something to yourself before you even say it to someone that you love and trust or could be a you know mental health professional. Which comes back to exactly what you just said, Money, about you know, about self-awareness and actually taking the time to think, hang on, am I and I'm not saying happy and like a kind of skipping through the fields, but you know, like am I content?

SPEAKER_00 33:10

Am I taking time? Exactly. There's so much noise. Like, am I spending moments in my days or my weeks where I can just sit and internalize actually what am I actually feeling? So many of us don't.

SPEAKER_01 33:22

Well, we've had a message here, and it's not, as I said, a question as such, but we've touched on the loneliness in a few different ways. But Dee's reached out on 4001 saying, I'm divorced and only have my children every other weekend, and that's when the loneliness hits me hard, when they're not with me. I mean, any time of transition, be it moving to a new country, starting a job, losing a job, I would even argue, you know, starting a relationship and in this case ending a relationship, is is a huge emotional toll, Mark. And I'm not saying that Dee needs to, you know, reach out and get therapy, but can I ask you, and this sounds like such a basic question, but I think it's a real barrier to a lot of people getting mental health support is what does therapy look like? You know, because you know, as Brits, you know, it feels like you know, it's gonna be Frasier or some, you know what I mean, or like some kind of, you know, leather sofa or you know, whatever. Like, I I think it feels very other and abstract and scary. And it isn't, and it can be literally life-saving. Would you mind just explaining what might happen? You know, if a man out there who is is listening and he's feeling lonely or disconnected or stuck and thinks, do you know what? I've I'm gonna make that appointment, I'm gonna pick up the phone because my wife's threatening me with divorce, or or I've got, you know, you know, to borrow your phrase from earlier, I need to take some kind of action. What might happen on the other side of that door?

SPEAKER_03 34:47

Yeah, sure. So my initial sessions are are pretty similar in the way in which I work, and I know a lot of other um therapists will. Um I always say this is a confidential space, go through all of the sort of the permutations of that. And I said today is as much about you getting to know me as the other way around, because therapy doesn't work unless you feel safe. So let's let's have an honest conversation um as much as we can in in this in this first session. And if you don't like me, tell me, because it's just not gonna work. And all of a sudden it sort of empowers them that they're not they're here for them, and you can see this kind of shift. Um, and we'll talk about anything. We might talk about the World Cup coming up, we might talk about, you know, some guys just want to jump straight in and they're like, oh, this is happening, or they'll, you know, they'll talk to me about loads of random stuff. And that's what I really love about their I learn so much. Um, so it it can be anything and everything.

SPEAKER_01 35:43

What what I found after going to therapy, and stops and starts over the years, is sometimes you go in thinking you're gonna talk about one thing and you end up talking about something completely different for an hour. And you're like, oh, I didn't realise that that was underpinning it all. And then, Manny, same question to you in terms of everything that you've built with mentality, you know, men's community. I immediately, and forgive my you know, kind of lazy stereotype, I'm like, is this gonna be a bunch of guys you know sitting in a circle crying? Because I don't know many men that want to go to that. The reality is quite different. Would you mind explaining the various ways that you connect?

SPEAKER_00 36:13

Yeah, so we have we have lots of different um event types, right? Um anything from supper clubs where you you're sat with a random bunch of people talking about lots of different things, be it life, be it background, be it work, be it relationships. Um, we we don't hold anything taboo. Um we don't hold any kind of um uh barriers to conversation because we understand that as men we go through all these different things and there's likely somebody else sat with you that will go through. Yes, of course, we do do the the kind of get-togethers that what you imagine to be a men's circle uh or what's considered to be a men's circle, but it's not it's not all of us sitting down crying and holding hands and singing cumbyo. It's not that at all. It's it's just a space just to feel yourself and understand that there are other people in the room that resonate with how you're feeling. And we can share stories, we can share anecdotes, we can share things that we've done that have helped us, and maybe it might work for you, maybe it won't. But we're not there to say you're condemned or you must do it this way.

SPEAKER_01 37:13

What I like is it's intentional. Yes. Do you know what I mean? Yeah. It's not like you know, randomly, as I said, kind of sitting down with your, you know, your wife and her husband, and you're like, you know, and that might be, you know, Scott, as you said earlier, Dubai is a transaction transitional place. You know, you might have built your circle and they've left, or you might be brand new and you don't know how to how to meet people. And as we know, it is all about who you know here, you know, personally, professionally, emotionally. So I just like the idea of guys just showing up and being like, I'm open to having conversations. I I'm I want to add a few numbers to my phone book and kind of get real for a night. And then, Scott, you kind of connect communities in a completely different way with mental. You've got the awards, you're going into workplaces, and and we have alluded to job insecurities and unhappiness in the workplace. And just lastly, I wondered if if you could have the power to help people feel more psychologically safe at work, what workplaces can do to support men in particular. What are there any initiatives, anything you're seeing, or anything you'd love to see that would go a long way?

SPEAKER_04 38:11

So many things. I mean, we've just written a massive white paper which was based on all of the winners of the awards over the last three years. And actually, when you take a step back and you look at what organizations are doing, there's actually quite a lot that's really, really good. Um, we had like we saw adnop that were creating different sets of benefits for different sets of life stages. So we had Baker McKenzie that had really good parental, uh like paternity leave, you know, to support men that way. We had uh WSP in the Middle East, this construction thing, and they'd started all these different sub-communities within the kind of you know, the community of WSP, but then they'd got menopause, they'd got men's, they'd got uh, you know, uh all sorts of different kind of subcommunities. So creating community can be really, really powerful with inside an organization and not just expecting people to turn up and go, well, you know, it's the the overarching, we're all working for the brand. It's actually creating places where people can talk to their different kinds of subcommunities.

SPEAKER_01 39:10

Which ties exactly back to this idea of intentionality about it is a choice for a company to lean into that, it is a choice for a man to look in the mirror and have an honest conversation, it is a choice to block off a night in your diary for you or to go out and meet people to speak to a mental health professional. And I'm so glad that you're all here today. Any final words, Scott?

SPEAKER_04 39:29

Well, I was just gonna say, like coming back to what Manny said, and I'm a weeper, so when you do the stage where they're crying and holding hands, I'm in. Um but we've we've done some stuff as well. We're CEOs, and the one thing, that loneliness, the one thing that that that all they all took away from having a conversation and sharing was, oh, it's not just me. And it is that isolation and that alone, and we think it's just us, and it's not. The majority of us, all of us are struggling with something.

SPEAKER_01 39:53

Literally, I was I was just about to say the exact same thing, and this is this conversation is a microcosm of that, you know, talking about you know, marriage, about work, about late-stage diagnosis, about abuse, about you know, generational um impacts as well. Every single person listening today will have some something that they are carrying. And I think we've really fallen into a trap of looking around and thinking that everyone's okay, you know, comparing our insides to everyone else's outsides. And I'm really, really grateful for everything you've shared in terms of your own personal experiences, but also what you're doing to kind of move that conversation on. So, Mark, Scott, money, absolute pleasure as ever. Just I knew it we've run out of time, but I I'm really grateful for your efforts, your conversations, and your generosity this afternoon. And I've had so many people asking for you details. So, thank you all.