Neurodiversity at Work: What Actually Works

Neuroinclusion is having a moment. But the real test is not what’s written in policy, it’s what happens on a normal Tuesday, inside a real team.

In this special Workplace Harmonics episode, supported by Viatris and AmCham Abu Dhabi, Scott Armstrong (mentl) is joined by Dr Khaled Kadry (psychiatrist, Sakina), Geoff McDonald (former Global VP of HR, Unilever) and Sara Boueri (CHRO, board advisor) to move the conversation beyond labels and into practical work design.This is a direct, candid discussion about psychological safety, meeting culture, interruptions, disclosure, and why “performance” can look fine on paper while people are quietly burning out.We explore:

• Why do so many people still feel unable to disclose what they need to do their best work?

• What does a neuroinclusive workplace look like in practice, not theory?

• Which “accommodations” improve performance for everyone, not just neurodivergent colleagues?

• How do you reduce overload created by meeting culture, constant interruptions, and chaotic operating rhythm?

• Why are KPIs not a reliable signal of health, sustainability, or psychological safety?

• How do leaders shift from “doing wellbeing to people” to improving the organisation itself?

Who should watch or listen

If you lead a team, work in HR, or are trying to build a workplace where people can thrive without masking, this episode will give you language, perspective, and practical levers you can use immediately.

Chapter List:

00:00 Organisations and psychological safety, why performance can hide harm

01:38 Why this topic became personal (adult ADHD, lived experience lens)

02:10 Meet the panel (Dr Khaled Kadry, Geoff McDonald, Sara Boueri)

05:03 What “neuroinclusive workplace” means in practice (a normal Tuesday)

09:17 What neurodivergent employees may be struggling with silently

12:01 Sara’s regional HR reality check: belonging, expectations, meeting culture

17:19 Geoff: organisations make people sick, stop “doing wellbeing to people”

22:21 Poll 1: biggest barriers to neurodiversity support at work

45:20 KPIs are not a sign of health (and why burnout can be invisible)

50:12 Poll 2: the one change teams will make next (meetings, focus, flexibility)

Transcript

SPEAKER_02 0:00

I think organizations have got a lot to be accountable for.

SPEAKER_01 0:03

I think they make people sick. The vast majority of organizations do not excel in psychological safety. It's in their best interest for employees to just hide in in their uh their roles and what they what it is that they need them to do, and and it's this elephant in the room that no one talks about.

SPEAKER_00 0:22

PPIs and performance metrics are not necessarily a sign of health or a sign that the person's doing well.

SPEAKER_03 0:33

Welcome to Workplace Harmonics, which is the webinar series which dives into the issues in the workplace. Every month we've been looking at a different issue every month to try and tackle some of the issues that we see day to day in organizations across the region. The Workplace Harmonics series is kindly supported by Amcham Abadabi and, of course, the actress. And we just wanted to take a moment to thank them for their support. Now, today's topic is something that I even a year ago didn't realise was something that was so relevant to me. Neuroinclusive workplaces that work for everyone. I come to this conversation today, uh, having been diagnosed uh last year with adult ADHD, something I've had since a child, uh, and had left school with very few qualifications. So many of you joining us today will be far more qualified than I, as indeed are my guest speakers today. We've got three fantastic experts for you today, and I'm going to introduce them first. We've got Dr. Halid Kadri, who is a specialist psychiatrist with uh Sikina. He's got a deep expertise of neurodiversity and how different brains function. And he's actually also worked in the US with the Special Olympics, and I'll let you tell let him tell you a little bit more about that later. Uh, we have Jeff McDonald with us today, who is a global advocate for mental health. He uh was the global vice president of HR at Unilever, responsible for more employees around the world than I can count, uh, but also brings to this an experience of anxiety and depression after he struggled and learned just what power mental health can have over our lives. And my third guest is the wonderful Sarah Boeri, who is an award-winning chief human resources officer. She's a board member, she's an advisor, she's been in the region for many, many, many, many, many years. He is a well-known keynote speaker on the region. We've worked together in the past and she is amazing. Now, before we get into the conversation, a couple of practical notes. You can ask questions of our guests today. Uh, if you want to submit questions in the QA, I'll keep an eye on that and try and put them to the panel. They will be anonymous. If you want me to read your name out, just put name Scott or something like that and let me know. Otherwise, I won't read your name out. I will just read the questions out. We will also ask some poll questions for you to get involved because we want to crowdsource your wisdom today and also learn what's happening in your workplaces. Again, no one's gonna see the answer. Uh we'll see the answers, but we won't see your names. So it's anonymous so you can kind of vote with your heart. Uh and with that, I'm gonna get into the conversation. Sara, Khaled, Jeff, thank you very much for joining us on Workplace Harmonics today.

SPEAKER_01 3:21

Thank you. Happy to be here. Kalid, you're muted.

SPEAKER_03 3:29

The age of one of these times I'm gonna get a sign up.

SPEAKER_01 3:33

It's 2026 and we're still saying.

SPEAKER_03 3:36

Well, look, these are the workplace issues that we face on a very daily basis.

SPEAKER_00 3:39

Still completely, completely. No, thank you very much, Scott. It's always a pleasure to to join you on mental and um and with the guest speakers. So thank you very much for having us.

SPEAKER_03 3:48

And great to have you with us as well, Jeff. Yeah, thank you. Thanks, Scott. Okay, so Khaled, I'm gonna kick off with you. Obviously, you've got a clinical expertise around neurodiversity. And we use the phrase neuroinclusive workplaces, and the title, obviously, today is trying to create and help organizations create neuroinclusive workplaces that work for everybody, but in a kind of practical way rather than a theoretical way. What does that term actually mean? Like, what does a normal Tuesday look like inside an organization that is embracing neurodiversity?

SPEAKER_00 4:26

Thank you very much, Scott. I think it might be helpful if I if I may to lay down maybe three um main principles for the benefit of the listeners of what we mean when we say uh neurodiversity uh and neuroinclusivity. So, neurodiversity implies differences in how people respond to the world and uh whether it's in social communication and social interactions, that the formal sense of that would be maybe autism spectrum conditions or ADHD, which presents as uh impulsivity, inattention, difficulties with organization, and so on. So, neurodiversity implies those two broad conditions, whether it's autism spectrum conditions or ADHD. And it's not to say that those then don't come with secondary uh presentations like anxiety, depression, OCD. So that's the first, you know, that's what we're referring to in terms of neurodiversity. The second point, I think you had mentioned before coming in, neurodiversity or autism, adult autism and ADHD doesn't occur in adults as a new presentation. It might manifest and become more apparent in adults, but you can often trace its roots back to early childhood and adolescence. So it will have almost certainly you can you can get a sense of it from an early childhood, but it becomes more apparent as time moves on. And the third principle is that both ADHD and autism and neurodiversity is triggered or tested, if you will, at transition points. So certainly starting school, going from primary to secondary, from secondary to uni, and then certainly from uni to the workspace. And so those transition points with uh changing roles, responsibilities, and demands is when you tend to see if there's any differences there, that's when they when they become uh highlighted. So just as three broad principles. Now, what does neuroinclusive workspace look like on uh on a regular Tuesday? You know, I was lucky enough to work with the leader ones who on my first day said, I don't believe in presentism. If there's work to be done, I expect it to be done. If there's, if you don't need to be here, go home and do your thing. And I think that principle of neuroinclusive workspaces allows individuals choice, allows them control over how they how they sort of are in the workplace and clarity in terms of expectations and and how they're you know how their performance is managed. If I'm neurodiverse and I struggle in the workspace, but I I feel it I might be more productive if I come in at five when everyone's gone and I stay until nine or ten uh at night, and I'm doing the work that ought to be endorsed in the workspace, in a in an organization or with leaders who truly understand that it's not about clocking in the nine to five, it's actually getting about the job done and what I need to do, how we can create a space that involves choice and clarity and control that allows employees and individuals to be at their best on a regular Tuesday.

SPEAKER_03 7:41

I mean, before I bring Sarah and um Jeff in, I uh could you just kind of outline? I mean, I know some of my struggles, obviously, but could you outline some of the because obviously, actually, quite a lot of adults in the workplace, or quite a lot of adults in their lives, mask, you know, we try and push through, we try and present the most normal sort of face to the world and to the workforce uh that we can. But what are people struggling with silently? And again, you know, we're talking about neurodiversity, it isn't just ADHD. Obviously, there are many that there are different aspects to it, but what are some of the challenges that that um neurodiverse employees might face in the workplace? Because I think perhaps there's many you know, leaders that don't actually realize that these things are an issue, particularly in the modern workplace.

SPEAKER_00 8:29

Very good question, Scott. And you'll be surprised how many leaders themselves are neurodivergent. And uh and we'll we'll get into that in a bit. But uh, in terms of how what people could be struggling with, you they could either be struggling with the primary issue, if you will, of being neurodivergent. So whether that's autism or being on the autism uh spectrum or having ADHD, or they can be struggling with the secondary, either mental health difficulties or environmental issues as a result of that. So, for example, if you have ADHD, you tend to be, you know, have racing thoughts and maybe disorganized and maybe do take impulsive decisions at times and take on more than you can, then you can possibly, you know, chew off more than you can, or bite off more than you can chew. You might have difficulties with emotional dysregulation, seeing tasks through. So these are all your primary uh neurodivergent qualities, if you will. But secondary to that, it's the interplay or the interaction with the environment then means that maybe you don't meet deadlines, or maybe there's friction between you and colleagues, or it might have an impact on how you regulate your emotions in the workspace. And if you're trying to conform to expectations, it's just an added layer of struggle for you. A similar story with if you're on the autism spectrum or have traits of being on the autism spectrum. So you tend uh not to, for example, engage in small chit-chat and office talk. You tend to be very particular about how things are done, when they're done, and have that rigidity in terms of expectations. You might be really goal-focused and task-oriented at the expense of maybe the human, and this is maybe one for the leaders rather than the employees of leaders that are really task-oriented and they're all about the black and white, without really paying much attention to the emotional or human element involved in the teams delivering that, often throwing a tantrum, you know, when when things are not met because of that rigid black and white uh approach. It it's an interplay between leaders who might be neurodivergent and then uh staff or employees or individuals who are also neurodivergent, and that interaction in the environment which is the battlefield, I think.

SPEAKER_03 10:56

A battlefield. So thanks for that, Khaled. Sorry, I mean, you've obviously been working in the region for many, many years. How does that definition on what Khaled's saying there kind of resonate with what you've been seeing in organizations? I mean, are we how are we doing? Are we doing well or are the things that we're actually stuck on? How is this conversation evolving? Because I feel there's there's still some way for us to go.

SPEAKER_01 11:19

Depends, it depends what organization we're talking about. Because I mean, some organizations are doing phenomenally well when it comes to uh mental health and awareness and and aspects. And you have a lot of organizations that are are very uh behind in in this aspect. I think the most important thing that I'd like to separate over here is you know me, Scott. I don't like to, I don't like to marginalize or even uh create exceptions. I try as much as possible through my policies and through my HR framework to create an environment of belonging, whether or not you're neurodiverse or whether you're um whether so whether or not you're neuro neurodiverse. So some of the aspects of neurodiversity, I'm sure the constant interruptions probably get very uh frustrating for them and lacking focus, the meetings, uh, a lack of proper communication. But the secret is, and here's the here's the little kicker, is that even non-neurodiverse people also struggle with those things. It's not just neurodiverse people. And so the minute we remove the label from it and and actually treat it like what do we as human beings, you know, you know, in all of our complexity and in all of our uh layers, what do we need to perform better? And from what I've seen, some of the things that companies do well is very clear expectations. When you have very clear KPIs, very clear deadlines, what needs to get done, and this is communicated well in advance, and then how you get there and how you achieve these KPIs then become a bit more fluid. That's a really good, uh, a really good aspect for everyone in the workforce. The other aspect is proper and transparent communication. Certain things need to get done, irrespective of how we're feeling, uh what emotional challenges we're going through, you know, how anxious or how happy we are. Things ultimately need to move forward. We're we're not a charity organization in most companies and results need to happen. And the excuse of neurodiversity is rarely an excuse that is tolerated when deadlines are not missed to the communication about what needs to get done and how it needs to happen. And then finally, respecting um uh boundaries. So uh too often I see meeting cultures gone wrong, you know, meetings that take hours and hours where nothing actually happens and that take away from actual time you could be using getting stuff done, uh, or just constant barragement of meetings where you're from like nine to five, you're just in meeting after meeting after meeting. Whether you're neurodiverse or not, that's going to affect your mental health. Like you need a bit of a break. And so, irrespective of label, I would say very clear KPIs, very clear expectations of what the role needs to or what needs to happen for the role to get done, very clear communication and expectation about uh how the role should get done. You might need to physically be present, but you need to sign up for that. And then the environment needs to be uh communicated to you from the beginning. And then finally, is actually creating environments where it's conducive to working, you know, not sticking anyone in in meetings for eight, nine, ten hours a day and then expecting stuff to actually happen. So being very clear and realistic uh is probably what I would what I would focus on.

SPEAKER_03 14:55

I love the fact that you kind of talked about removing the label. I mean, obviously the the topic title of today's conversation is neuroinclusive workplaces that win for everybody. And and and it was it was fascinating because it was our mental health conference last year in Saudi Arabia, actually, where there was a professor that came on and he was talking and his entire presentation was about creating neurodevice workplaces. Um and I was very uh sort of early into my diagnosis, uh, and he the conversation was how employees could uh accommodate them. And I'd never been kind of one of them before, and then he he listed a series of accommodations that that that could be you know uh put in place for us to be able to kind of almost like keep up, and then listed these things, and all of them, not a single one, would not have made the workplace better for everyone.

SPEAKER_01 15:51

Exactly, that's exactly it.

SPEAKER_03 15:53

Jeff, I have to bring you in here as well. You know, you've obviously been at the forefront of this conversation around mental health and workplaces and allowing people to be themselves. Uh, and you were talking very powerfully the last time we did a podcast together about you chose not to label yourself with a stigma, this idea that let's get rid of the label and and just empower people to be themselves. How important is that in organization these days? And how do we move from that being some intangible mission statement that's written on a wall to actually being lived every day by all of the employees?

SPEAKER_02 16:31

Yeah, I mean, I I've I've been reflecting a lot on what Khaled and Sarah just said as somebody who has got very ill with depression. Yeah. And listening to Khaled makes me wonder whether am I autistic or have I got ADHD, which kind of led to my depression. It's an interesting reflection, Khaled. And then you know, listening to Sarah and to this point that work well organizations, businesses are not charities, and they're you know, they're expected to perform and deliver growth and deliver profitability and a return to shareholders and all other stakeholders. Um and whether you neurodivers or not, I think organizations have got a lot to be accountable for. I think they make people sick. And I think they make people sick through putting huge levels of demands and stresses on people without taking into account the impact that might have on individuals' physical, emotional, and mental health. I often say organizations spend billions in health and safety. Well, guess what? It all goes to safety. It all goes to keeping people physically safe at work. Why don't organizations also invest and spend time, energy, and effort on keeping workplaces mentally and emotionally safe, and that goes beyond a banana next to the till in the canteen, or a well-being week where I care for you for one week of the year, and then I flog you to death for the other 31 weeks of the year, or for 35 weeks of the year. And so for me, the real challenge right now is how do leaders, and we in HR in particular, help to create cultures where people can thrive, irrespective of whether they are neurodiverse or not. But how can we how can we really look at what are the levers? You know, I often say since COVID and the and the growth of well-being, you know what organizations do to God, they do well-being to people.

SPEAKER_03 19:25

Yes.

SPEAKER_02 19:26

I'm gonna give you an app, go and sort out your well-being. Well, you know what? If there's a culture of bullying, you know where you can stick the app. You know where you can stick it. You can stick it right around. So I think we should forget about not forget about, but let's move beyond doing well-being to people and our employees and start doing well-being to the organization. Identify what are the factors at an organizational level that are impacting the well-being of people, some of the policies, the processes, the systems that stress people out, the way leaders show up and behave and act, the way we communicate and talk about this whole concept of well-being and mental health, the physical working environment that we offer to people, the nature of the work, is there flexibility, is there a hybrid approach to work? I so I'm with Sarah in saying I think everybody should have the opportunity to thrive at work. And I think we should be focusing more on the organizational culture than throwing apps and massages and yoga classes to employees.

SPEAKER_03 20:47

The thing that always annoys me when I chat to you, Jeff, is the fact that you just sit on the fence so much and you don't say what you actually feel. No, but yeah, you're you're absolutely right. And also, I mean, I remember also the one thing that I also stuck with me after listening to that professor talk about all the accommodations that could be made for them. At no point did he actually use the word ask, ask them what they need. Whether they be neurodiverse or left-footed, uh right-handed, uh, you know, it's kind of like the whole if a footballer is a left-footed footballer, then you don't play him on the right, or if he's an actual goalkeeper, you don't make him a striker. How do you actually just optimize roles and the you know their position in the team that play to their strengths? And while I'm using the word ask, audience, it's time for me to ask you because I want to just source what's happening in your place. So I'm going to launch a poll. Hopefully, the technology will work and you will see the poll question come up. And the first question uh I want you to answer today for us is what's currently the biggest challenge in supporting neurodiversity in your workplace? Is it a lack of awareness? Is it unclear how? To make practical statements, adjustments. Sorry, is it concern about saying or doing the wrong thing? And that's something I really want us to come back to. Is it work design that does not allow flexibility? Ironically, that we've got five rigid questions for you to answer rather than all of them, or is it limited leadership buyout? I'm going to launch that poll now. You should see that coming up on the screen any second now. Um, guys, Sarah, here we go. I think it should be on the screen. Say vote vote now. I'm going to start with Khaled. Out of those uh sort of five options, and I'm sure it is as always all of the above. What do you think is perhaps one of the biggest challenges facing people in the workplace right now?

SPEAKER_00 22:45

Well, I I mean I I don't know if I can add one in. Uh yes, of course. But I but I think it's it's disclosure, and I I might get uh you know, I'd be interested to hear Sarah's insights. It's disclosure at the point of interview or or signing up to say, I have I have a diagnosis of ADHD and ASD. Because honestly, you you sometimes either have had that journey and you acknowledge and you embrace it, and you've you know you've been through the process and you have a formal diagnosis, or often we we hire people and then on the job you think got there, you know, this is very much an ADHD picture, or I've certainly worked with uh colleagues and managers who are more you know very rigid, very focused on the black and white numbers than any kind of human interaction. So I think the maybe the awareness, but at the point of of signing someone up to a job, whether they they feel comfortable, if I say I have ADHD, will that impact my chances of being employed in this particular company? So I hold back. Yeah. Um and I and I remember I remember quick uh when we were interviewing people for an admin job, we asked them, how do you manage stress? This was a very common uh question we asked. And inevitably, and I kid you not, Scott, almost 80% of the people said, I don't get stressed. And this was in an in a for an admin role. And I said, I've been doing this for 20 years, I get stressed, and they will perceive that if they say they get stressed, maybe this will hinder their chances of being employed.

SPEAKER_03 24:14

Yeah, I find that fascinating. What do you know what though, with the audience answering, and thank you very much for getting involved in the poll? I mean, they're saying actually the biggest factor they're facing is a lack of awareness or understanding. That that, you know, because there is quite almost like a lot out there right now, but yet we still have, I don't know, whether it be myths or uh misunderstanding. Sarah, can I get you to react to what the audience is is saying there? And also I think, you know, because obviously you, you know, you've you sat in that interview chair across the desk from candidates, and I think he raises a really good point of how comfortable do people feel at interview saying, yeah, I'm coming into this role, and this is how you know this is how I am, this is how my brain works, this is, you know, I have ADHD and it's gonna manifest in these different ways, some good and some um are gonna be can be managed, or or however you want to phrase that. So yeah, yeah, over to you.

SPEAKER_01 25:14

Yeah, I I forget the interview process. I can't even picture employees feeling comfortable, at least the majority of employees feeling comfortable to do that while in the job and while yeah, having built the rapport and while having built the results and everything around them. There is this stigma when it comes to psychological, or not a stigma, but there is a major issue in the workplace when it comes to psychological safety. And I fully agree with Jeff in this aspect where we do not make anyone feel psychological. That's a huge uh exaggeration, but the vast majority of organizations do not excel in psychological safety. Uh uh they only excel in psychological safety if the results are coming in. And in that case, if they have this buffer where results are coming in naturally, then maybe they can set aside that 5% of budget on psychological safety and things like that. Not everyone is is uh is the leader that Racky Phillips is in this aspect. And so the the Racky Phillips of this world are like the 1%, and the rest of them are the 99% where they don't want you to be psychologically safe. It's in their best interest for employees to just hide in in their uh their roles and what they what it is that they need them to do. And and it's this elephant in the room that no one talks about. Forget neurodiverse people. Let's just talk females uh at work, although I'm I hate labels in general. But if I were in an interview, I if let's say I planned on taking on a role and or let's say I'm I get I get pregnant at work, which happens, I got pregnant, and I was too me in my position as an HR professional, I couldn't bring myself to tell my boss that I was pregnant because I was worried about the repercussions and what could potentially happen. And this is, you know, my my work hadn't changed, my dynamic hadn't changed. I had been in the role for years, my results have proven themselves, and yet I still felt unsafe to bring up that I was about to have a beidi. And completely different things, but we all suffer these challenges where we're struggling with something that's making us anxious about what we need in order to perform. And we can't have these conversations because I guarantee you the HR person sitting in front of Khalid, if he goes up to them and he's like, So how do you handle stress? And then the the person replies, I'm terrible at it. I actually sit in my room and cry for days and days, and uh and I can't handle any stress. I get super overwhelmed and very overstimulated. Who thinks this person's getting the job?

SPEAKER_03 28:00

So many mic drop moments. I did also kind of want to sort of come back. And you you re you you make a really, really good point. And what's fascinating is actually uh we did uh uh an interview and podcast with Deloitte, and they had their Women in Work 2025 report. And in that, and this was obviously it it was conducted in the region, but also globally, and within that, only one percent of women felt able to actually disclose that they were neurodivergent. One percent, 99% of women with you know, could be I guarantee you.

SPEAKER_01 28:32

Sorry, Scott, I guarantee you that 1% had already resigned because otherwise they're not saying anything.

SPEAKER_03 28:37

You've just teed me up beautifully for the next question for Jeff, which is you know, um, sta talent leave. I mean, look, talent's at a premium. Organizations need talented, vibrant members of the team, and the risk is that they might leave. But I was gonna ask you, Jeff, you know, from a culture and leadership perspective, no right divergence or indeed overall culture, because again, we're creating a culture that's good for everybody. What is the cost to the organization of not getting this right? And what are leaders still not understanding about this conversation? Like, you know, Sarah say psychological safety is still you know a rare quality in an organization.

SPEAKER_02 29:21

Yeah, look, I mean, I mean, if we don't get this right, I mean, I think we know the cost. I mean, there's so much research out there that that kind of has shown us that the actual return on investing in the well-being of your people, for every dollar that you invest, you're gonna get a five or a six dollar return. Okay, so and I think we all kind of know that having engaged, happy, energized people are gonna perform is gonna mean better performance. Uh, and if we don't have any of that, we're gonna have, you know, you're not gonna be a very, very attractive place to work, we're gonna find it difficult to retain people, we're gonna have to recruit more people, the people are not gonna be performing properly because they're gonna just be present rather than energized in giving of their days. So the costs are significant, but you know what I think, I don't know. I think I leaders, I don't yet see this connection between well-being and performance. This is not an either or this is not about should we focus on the well-being of our people or should we focus on performance? This is about it's about both. And by the way, I don't like the word well-being. Yeah, okay, because it's kind of seen to be some soft, fluffy HR issue that can be done on a Friday afternoon, right? I much prefer, I mean, one of the biggest insights I've had over the last 12 years, speaking all over the world and doing some of my stuff, is the most limiting resource that I see in workplaces today, the most limiting is the energy of people. People are frizzled, they are frizzled, they can't wait for a Friday afternoon and they don't love a Monday morning. And you know what I would argue, Scott, that the most critical enabler of performance is my energy. The energy, my energy at an individual level, the energy of a team. You know what it's like to work in a team that feels energized and there's a bit of passion, and you've got a leader who brings energy rather than those leaders who suck every bit of energy out of you. I call them brains. You see them on a Monday morning and you do an about turn. You don't want to be near that person because they're gonna suck all your energy from you. I cannot be energized if I'm not healthy physically, emotionally, mentally, spiritually. And so, and that's what that's well-being is being well at those four levels. But I don't I think we've we've struggled to really get leaders to see this as a strategic driver of performance of the organization. And I think the term energy, I think that resonates with leaders. I think it resonates this term energy. You know, I'm a I'm an Arsenal supporter on the Premier League, okay? I'm so happy that Bournemouth had more energy last night than Manchester City. And even afterwards, when you listen to the when you listen to the commentators, they were all saying there was a lack of energy on the field. There was a lack of energy. We cannot be energized without being healthy. I cannot perform if I'm not healthy. And so, how do we get leaders to see this more as a performance driver rather than some sock fluffy HR thing?

SPEAKER_03 32:59

Boy, that's a that's a risky, risky thing to uh to raise there because I think half of the people will be in Abbott Abbey so they're Atihad and they're uh Man City fans, and then obviously we've got Emirates who are the sponsors of Arsenal, so some will be happy and some of them won't. Yeah, no, I'm self-employed, so I'm not quite sure what kind of a uh leader I am. Khalid, but I think that's a great point around energy and around performance. Um one of the things I and again, just from a lived experience point of view, is fascinating because I spent 33 years in journalism and I used to work very, very differently to everybody else. I would have five, six, seven different stories on the go all the time, and I could and I would jump jump jump and I worry about all of them and I would complete all of them. So I would deliver, and ironically, I think I lived, I worked, you know, I landed in a career that actually uh was complemented actually by my ADHD that I didn't know I had. Whereas everybody else was working in a linear fashion, which is I'm gonna do this task first and then I'm gonna complete it, and then I'm gonna do that task and then complete it. What's the what are the opportunities here for employees? Like, what does it look like for neurodiverse? You know, employees in workplaces, and how can we optimize to get that because it because Jeff is right, you know, this is all mental health is health, and health is a performance conversation for organizations.

SPEAKER_00 34:22

Yeah, you're absolutely right. And if I if I if I bridge the the football analogy with what we with what we were saying, I think leaders ought to really act and behave like good football coaches and and managers, in that people come with a different uh skill set. So if I if I have ADHD, the analogy you said, if I if I bring in a goalkeeper and try and get him in defense, he's not or in attack, he's not going to perform well. So if I have someone with who I think is neurodivergent on the autism spectrum and I put him as the front-facing person who does public relations and goes out and talks to people, that's a recipe for disaster. And equally, maybe if I have someone who is neurodivergent with an ADHD trait, and if I pin them down to a desk job, you know, nine to five looking at data uh all day, they'd rather sort of jump off the of the of the room. So I think that the idea, and I would love to see um uh an uh a future where people feel encouraged at the point of the interview to say, I have ADHD or I have autism, and then for leaders to say, right, well, how can I use that special skill that you have of the fact that you love to spend you know the next six hours doing coding or looking at particular things, or if you have ADHD that you go out and take on a couple of projects, and how can I support you then with people that pick up after you and keep you in check and make sure that they have that attention to detail and the tasks are completed and so on, that you use the strength of these neurodivergent profiles, whether it's ASD or AD or anything else, and then support it and complement it with people that then make sure that you deliver on those things. But that really takes a progressive and insightful type of organization and leadership that recognizes that neurodivergence is a strength. It comes with its own challenges, as you know, as Sarah was saying, everyone else is like how do you get the best of people? And then what can you put in place to hold them and support them and nourish the bit that maybe they're not so good at? And then and then you've got a winning team.

SPEAKER_01 36:40

Actually, I I want to piggyback on what you just said, Khalid, because uh again, I'm not a fan of labels, and I feel like there's a sort of hypochondria as well when it comes to neurodiverse uh labels. Like I don't know if I I tease my sister because I think she self-diagnosed herself with every single mental disorder or uh neurodiverse disorder uh that can be known, because you look at something and we're so we're so nuanced as uh as humans that we identify with so many things. How many people have you met who said, I'm an introvert, but I'm an extrovert sometimes, or like I'm a O C D, but not on everything, or we can relate to so many of these aspects because we're so complex as individuals. So, Khalid, instead of so if let's say I had an interviewee come in come in and say, Oh, I have I have ADHD, the problem is that not two ADHD people are the same. You can have some ADHD people who can sit on a desk and get something done. So I would, I agree that we need to improve the recruitment process, but rather than labeling, which then boxes someone into, you know, either a gender category or a neuro neurodiverse category or whatever it is, we actually highlight what the job physically requires, what the job mentally requires, and then what the job emotionally requires, if it's different. I don't know, I just made the last one up. But if you were to come in and say this job is something where you're going to have to be sitting on a desk for at least five hours straight, concentrating for at least two of those five hours, versus another one where this job requires you to interact with different human beings in a pleasant way and not in a way that wants you to shove their heads down the toilet. And then once we identify what all of these aspects are, then when we're interviewing someone, I'm not interviewing or I'm not interested in, hey Scott, you said you're OCS O C D. Does that mean you're very tidy? And I look more, I look more for hey, we need this to be very structured. Uh Wade, someone who has an eye for detail, are you that person? And it's a refrain from the labels because I feel like a lot of the times they're just excuses.

SPEAKER_02 39:01

But Sarah, can I can I just challenge you on that a little? Please. Um why is it okay to label somebody who might have a physical ailment but not label somebody who has a mental ailment?

SPEAKER_01 39:19

Define physical ailments.

SPEAKER_02 39:26

Or hybridobert. Yeah. Why can I say why can I say, you know, well, I've got glandular fever, but I can't say I suffer from ADHD?

SPEAKER_01 39:38

No, but it's not, uh I'm not at all saying that you can't say it or that you should be ashamed to say it, but I would not treat someone with cancer differently than I would treat someone who is fully healthy.

SPEAKER_02 39:49

Uh I would design systems that are uniform and uh wouldn't you if somebody came into the office and said, Look, you know what, I've just been diagnosed with cancer, would you would you would you not treat them differently?

SPEAKER_01 40:04

Look, but as a from an emotional perspective, I could potentially treat them differently, but to change my policy because someone has cancer, my policy should be able to withstand all different types of situations. And whether we like it or not, sometimes physical ailments can't prevent us from getting the job done. And if we're honest about that, then that's that's so that's what I'm saying is that we need to be honest about what the job requires. And uh, if someone comes on board in a wheelchair and says, I would like to be the lifeguard, there's obviously limitations to that. And so I'm not saying that they can't tell me that they're that they have ADHD, but I don't want to assume that because someone has ADHD that they're a certain way. And it's removing the assumptions uh that I'm trying to actually get across is that I don't want to label people because we're no two people are the same. And we're so diverse in general that the minute we start to label them, I feel it hinders us. It's a lot better to explain exactly what the role requires. And if you have ADHD and you can't cut it in this role, I'm not going to make uh exceptions because that's the last thing you would want.

SPEAKER_03 41:21

Because then you're gonna be labeled the affirmative action case that, oh, this person was hired because can I I'm gonna I'm gonna grab it's my webinar, I'm gonna grab the talking stick back, Jeff, just for a moment. No, I mean, I think it's a really, really fascinating point as well. Because I mean, and and from a management, I I I not knowing that I had ADHD, I had a member of staff who was uh who had ADHD and she was very determined and very talented, but she was doing the job, and the job she was doing was not set up or was not the right role for her. Not because she didn't have the intellect, talent, or ability to do it, but it just hurt her in the same way that you ask me to do a spreadsheet, I believe that XL is the devil's work, and it can bring me you you ask me to do a CRM, and I will literally be close to tears and I will look and go, I can't do it, I can't do it. And yet I can be very, very creative and I can contribute. I but also you're talking there, I think, as well, about trying to get beyond the stereotypes and the and again the assumptions, and I just and Jeff, I will give you a mic drop moment, don't you worry, but I wanted to bring Khaled in and just just for a bit because again, Sarah was saying there, you know, obviously, no too neurodiverse. And I also think the phrase neurotypical is a bit of a misnomer because everybody's so different, but even within neurodiversity, even within ADHD, I mean I'm inattentive with a little bit, you know, of you know uh combined, but there are there are three to four different types of ADHD, all of which have different sort of traits. What are some of the myths? What are some of the assumptions that organizations are making about people when we because obviously we are talking about neurodiversity, so I'm just gonna kind of keep it onto that and take advantage of your expertise on that from a clinical perspective.

SPEAKER_00 43:15

Yeah, and and you're absolutely right. And I and I and I agree both actually with with Sarah and Jeff. The accommodations I was referring to, and I and I'll come back just to give a quick example. I I uh and there's a story from a colleague who uh had one of his patients was uh CEO of a major company worth a hundred plus million uh pounds, who had ADHD and things weren't going well because he wasn't attending the appointment. And the reason he wasn't attending appointments is that every time he tried to leave the office, he would get distracted and being pulled into multiple different conversations that he would miss the appointment. And so part of the plan was that on the day of the appointments, his PA would literally take him from his hand from his office and walk him down to his car. make sure to make sure he made the appointment. So it's that sort of really small adjustments that doesn't have to do with with labels and so on. But in terms of in terms of myths and I think corporate organizations certainly operate in quite a hierarchical way. So there's line managers and supervisors and performance metrics and so on. And so if someone's performing well, actually if someone is performing well or not, I think there needs to be clear supervision because people can be neurodivergent and perform really well, but it comes at the cost of burnout and emotional stress. And so performance metrics and KPIs doesn't mean you've got a clean bill of hand. It doesn't mean things are okay because it's those people who often then crash and you hear lots of stories of people doing really, really well and all of a sudden, you know, all of a sudden something terrible happens. So KPIs and performance metrics are not necessarily a sign of health or a sign that the person's doing well. Neither for that matter is them not delivering on KPIs. It's about how well do I know my team? How well do I know my my staff? How is it that I can make the adjustments for every person, whether they have they are neurodivergent or not, to get the best out of them and then to try and work through what is it that's getting in the way of them not performing or not being happy with the with the job and so on. I think some of the myths around SD and ADHD that they are people are liability, they're a handful to manage possibly that they need special care. Actually one of the myths now unfortunately sometimes this does happen that people use their neurodivergent profiles as an excuse for not doing things. I can't work in an open space because I you know I want my own office because I get easily distracted or I'm not going to do this because it's uh it's a sensory overload. Now this might be true but you know as Sara was saying earlier these are not charitable organizations. You know if this environment is not the right environment for you then maybe nothing to do with your with your ASD or anything but that's the nature of the work and maybe a different environment would be helpful not in a punitive way but actually in a way that we don't think you're going to be happy here. You know we we're more than happy to have you but this is this is the reality of things now we can try and make some accommodations but actually we're not sure you're going to be happy in this kind of setting that requires you to do multiple Excel spreadsheets and so on.

SPEAKER_03 46:33

But isn't this the conversation isn't this the opportunity as well Jeff uh we've got about 10 minutes left uh there is an actual another poll question to ask so I want to get it I'm gonna I'm gonna ask the impossible and for you to kind of come back to me briefly but um isn't this the opportunity though that if we can have this open and honest conversation at the start you know remembering that only 1% of women in that survey were willing to say that they had you know that they had no they were neurodiverse if we can have an open and honest conversation at the start that means that we can actually that people can access career paths that are going to really they're going to excel in and also organizations can hire you know the the the arsenal striker that scores the goal that wins you the premiership rather than you know rather than the goalie saying yeah yeah yeah I'll take that job do you know what I mean yes so I'm glad you that was very brief you've uh thank you for understanding the brief and now I'm gonna ask you to expand on that for another 59 seconds now I'm not gonna extend on it I'm not gonna expand on it you're right but but look the only thing I'd say Scott is I want us to be I want organizations to be having those conversations as part of the development of their people not just only in the beginning when they arrive if my health is such a critical enabler of my performance please let's twice a year let's not just focus on my skills and my knowledge and my experience and my career let's have a conversation about where I'm at physically mentally and emotionally and hey if you're struggling a bit with something guess what we as an organization offer these go and sort it out go and do what needs to be done and it's part of their development part of their growth so that they can perform better.

SPEAKER_02 48:25

And I think we should be having these conversations we should build it into development conversations with employees.

SPEAKER_03 48:33

I'm gonna say I'm just gonna give you the opportunity to say uh another thing which is also because you talk about performance why can we not get this conversation route up because this is actually a fundamental performance conversation isn't it it's like it's not removed from performance it's actually an enabler of performance yeah and along with that goes to the profits and the health of the health of the employees directly linked to the health of the company all right um we've only got a few more minutes left uh about seven minutes I told you guys this conversation would fly by I'm gonna launch the second poll uh we're gonna focus on what you and the audience out there I hope you've been enjoying this conversation as much as I have I think it's been brilliant um I'm going to uh launch our second poll hopefully which should calm up launch the instant poll here we go so looking forward and I love these kind of stopstart continue conversations what do you think is the one change you're most likely will help your your team uh in the next few days so there's a bunch of questions there firstly improve clarity and expectations allow more flexibility how work gets done uh reduce unnecessary meetings or interruptions I feel like that might be a popular result and I think I'm gonna put that one in build more regular check-ins with the team which is again kind of what Jeff and Sarah were both saying and Khalid or protect time for focus work what do you think is the thing that could make your life so much better I can see oh look at that I knew it would be as well uh perhaps no surprise to any of you on the panel Jeff Sarah or indeed Khalid that reduce unnecessary meetings or interruptions is the one thing and that kind of comes right back to where you started Sarah isn't there which is like everyone hates this so actually if we're talking about building inclusive places it's not a neurodiverse slash neuroinclusive thing it's a let's design work better for everyone exactly and uh I'm I'm actually going to the problem with human beings is that we're fickle we don't even know ourselves we lack self-awareness and if you were to come with the best neurodivergent policies and uh the best job descriptions a lot of the times we're so self-unaware that we actually don't know what we want.

SPEAKER_01 51:03

And so the best thing that we can do as an organization and as professionals is to design systems that promote the best to get work done. Because one day I'm an extreme extrovert the best way for me to get work done throw me in the bull pits let me interact with people. On another day I've just had a fight with X or Y. I've come in I want to be alone I don't want to talk to someone and so we assume that we're not fickle but it's the opposite we're so uh cyclical and uh there's so many like ebbs and flows in our day-to-day life that it's very difficult to just and this is why I dislike the labels is it's they're not consistent. We as human beings should not be consistent. And the beauty of work and what we can do is create things policies that are consistent. Don't waste your time in meetings don't make people work inflexibly if there's another option don't promote hard work promote smart work. So there's certain aspects that make sense irrespective of how you're feeling or what your label is or whatever it is. And so that's what I would say is look at the policies look at the processes remove bureaucracy remove unnecessary aspects that don't need to be there and let's move away from the person and focus on how to fix the system.

SPEAKER_03 52:29

Amazing I'm gonna get you to focus though Khalid on the person if as a clinician if you're gonna talk to leaders of organizations what would you advise them like either you know stop start continue if we talk about health mental health physical health health as Jeff keeps talking about organizations are healthy when their employees are healthy what would be the the just like stop start continue doing this so I mean it's it's uh what's interesting uh Scott is that it depends on the size of organizations.

SPEAKER_00 53:01

So I've certainly worked in organizations that were like 50 to 100 employees versus other organizations that are 5,000. And when you've got 5,000 plus you almost want rules that you know something that is set with some exceptions you can be a lot more flexible with smaller organizations. So I can understand why big organizations maybe find it more difficult to cater for individual needs because they there needs to be rules and there needs to be governance around things. I think what I would almost certainly say which people know that the health of the organization is the health of the if the employees employees will either go quiet you know you'll you'll tend to find sick leave rates go up people leaving if they're not happy which is ultimately bad for business you know there's always this risk of you you keep pushing and you might get short-term gains by you know by pushing everyone to their limit and then people burn out there's friction the ethos of of companies then become unhelpful and then you start to get into a cycle of a downturn often what then happens is that sort of person at the top has achieved their goals and they've moved on. So they they don't really care and then it's you know for the next person who then comes on that uh that takes it on so what I would say to to leaders is know your people you know that's the real true asset of the organization is the people and then I think I would have thought flexibility because flexibility then allows allows organization to cater for different people with different needs at different times you know outside of saying at certain times I might need something but then the certain per the same person might need something else at a different time. So for there to be a flex in the system that caters for individual needs and for there to be you know regular metrics that doesn't involve productivity but it involves genuine well-being as Jeff was saying that's not a token thing but actually are you okay and you know how what can I do for to help you do what you need to do best because you're the you know your you're the asset. I think that's what true leadership needs to look like.

SPEAKER_03 55:14

Jeff we've got a minute or two left which is a challenge but also you shared you know your lived experience it's your lived experience when you ended up in hospital kind of shaped who you are today what did that teach you about human beings inside organizations because you held that really seeing a job what was those those powerful lessons from that to just to kind of wrap this all up in a huge conversation.

SPEAKER_02 55:46

My breakdown was my breakthrough in life and in many ways it taught me to be a better leader to be a better listener to be more compassionate it taught me that I can overcome significant challenges in my life and in the workspace and ultimately it made me a better human being and I really think creating a greater sense of humanness in workplaces is what we need so that we can accommodate everybody and they can give a bit of feeling energized imagine saying to people go to work because it's good for you people say to me go for a ram because it's good for you. Imagine if we could say go to work because it's good for you.

SPEAKER_03 56:54

Ladies and gentlemen if you just heard loud bang that was a massive microphone hitting the floor right we are I mean I could keep this conversation going for hours but unfortunately we are out of time to the audience members thank you so much for joining us today. I hope you've enjoyed the conversation uh Jeff Sarah Khalid time's flown by thank you for both such an insightful but spirited conversation as well so thank you very much for joining us on uh workplace harmonics thank you guys and also quick note check out our YouTube channel and if you are watching on YouTube hello to our 8000 subscribers uh for the full series of workplace harmonics there are so many insights on there you'll also find a great former podcast from Khaled about children and digital uh parenting in the digital age and you'll find Jeff's full story where we talk about as well on the mental space uh about what his experience and his experience so with all of that I've overrun I'm going to shut up for once and just say thank you so much for being with us on this journey and workplace harmonics. Thank you very much.

SPEAKER_02 58:01

Thank you thank you everyone thanks Sarah and thanks Calet